Kevin Garber: [00:01] This week on the "It's a Monkey" podcast.

Dave: [00:04] This has just been a crazy year for podcast. According to Edison Research, we saw the greatest growth year over year, 2015 going into 2016. Now, we're at the point where more than one in five Americans has listened to a podcast within the last month.

[00:18] We're talking...that's substantial number of people. That's over 50 million Americans. We're seeing that a billion plus listens per year dedicated to podcast.

[00:39] [background music]

Kevin: [00:39] Good morning. Good evening. Hello, wherever you are in the world. Thank you for joining us on the It's a Monkey podcast, episode number 81. We're a podcast where we chat about everything related to the tech economy, entrepreneurship, political economy issues, startups.

[00:52] It is episode number 81. My name is Kevin Garber. I'm the CEO of ManageFlitter. With me, as usual, is my co-host, Kate Frappell, who is the Design Lead at ManageFlitter. Kate, thank you so much for joining us.

Kate Frappell: [01:05] It's good to be back again.

Kevin: [01:06] Thank you. A special welcome to people watching us on Periscope Live. We do Tweet out when we Periscope it live, usually, sometime on the Wednesday. It is Wednesday 15th of February for our Periscope users.

[01:23] We will be publishing this podcast on Friday 17th of February, 2017. As usual, we have a fantastic show lined up for you. Later on in the show, we are actually going to be talking about podcasting on our podcast, which is quite interesting.

[01:39] We're going to be talking with Glenn Rubenstein, who has an agency that specializes in podcasts and selling ads on podcast networks, etc. We'll be chatting to him a little bit later on in the show. As usual, we talk about tech news.

[01:59] This week's tech news, we're going to give a little bit of a break to the Instagrams, the Snapchats, the Facebooks, which we so often talk about. Kate, a story out of a social platform media that we don't often talk about, Pinterest. Tell us what's happening with Pinterest?

Kate: [02:15] Pinterest are rolling out three new visual discovery tools. The first one being called "Shop the Look." This allows people to click on individual items.

[02:28] Inside one image, they'll put little circles on, for example, if there's a girl wearing a jumper and jeans with a bag, they'll put a dot on the bag, dot on the jeans and a dot on the jumper. Then you can click on those dots, and it will either take you to the store where you can buy them or show you similar items of clothing from other brands.

Kevin: [02:53] This is a photo that you've put up. You've already taken this photo?

Kate: [02:57] No. That's the next feature they've implemented called Lens.

Kevin: [03:01] OK. Let's talk about Lens. I found Lens the most interesting announcements of theirs. Lens, as far as I understand, it's sort of like a Shazam for products, right?

Kate: [03:13] Yeah.

Kevin: [03:13] You just actually point your photo, your camera I should say, at a product or at a scene even. It doesn't even have to be a product. You can point it at a scene.

[03:22] In the example, they had a scene, I think like an outdoor entertainment area scene and a tags, barbeque, chair, table. You can drove down or it actually brings us stream of links that are related to that. Am I correct in saying something like that?

Kate: [03:40] Yeah. I think one of the examples I read was an outdoor deck chair. You see it. You like it. You want to buy it. You don't know who makes it or what shops stocks it, but you can take a picture of it. Put on Pinterest and in theory, we'll show you where you can get it. Or if it doesn't find that, it will suggest other deck chairs similar.

Kevin: [04:03] Lens, I believe, you don't have to actually take the photo, right?

Kate: [04:07] I think so.

Kevin: [04:07] I don't think you have to take the photo. I think you actually just point at it.

Kate: [04:12] Essentially. That's how Shazam sort of works.

Kevin: [04:14] I think you just...

Kate: [04:15] But they do store your Shazams if you know what I mean. Every time you've recorded a snippet, they'll store it.

Kevin: [04:22] Right. Of course, this is only in beta, so it's not at for-public consumption yet. I can see the value in that they are talking about how often you'll see something, you'll remember it, and sometimes you don't even know what to google around it, right?

Kate: [04:41] Yeah.

Kevin: [04:42] Say you're out and you see someone is taking a dog for a walk and they have an interesting dog leash that you would like to buy for your dog and you're not exactly sure whether you should google new dog leashes, interesting dog. You're not quite sure what to do and this in theory should help with that.

[05:02] That you use this Lens so to speak and it will find the appropriate products link and know what to google and just take the friction out of finding what you're looking for.

Kate: [05:15] Yeah. Essentially, it's sort of the Google Reverse Image Search but inside Pinterest. There is already a feature that Google have where you can upload an image you might have found somewhere else and it will locate what other websites are displaying that image.

Kevin: [05:33] Do you use that much?

Kate: [05:35] Not a lot. More in university when you had to reference and source where you found your things.

Kevin: [05:41] Right. Is it...?

Kate: [05:42] But even the co-founder of Pinterest is actually quoted as saying, "You shouldn't have to put your thoughts into words to find great ideas." That's the backbone of this new feature.

Kevin: [05:52] It's true. We really take for granted our generation. Well I think I'm including myself in your generation but we're almost separate generations, that we think in terms of googling.

[06:02] Jimmy who we've spoken about on the show many times, I think he is 76. It's interesting to see how he doesn't think in terms of googling things. He'll start and he'll wander things and then I'll say, "Oh, we should just google that." He always says, "Oh, I never think of doing that."

Kate: [06:16] It's the first thing we think about.

Kevin: [06:19] It is. This might be even the next level that takes it to the next step and perhaps even when we do have smart glasses, and which we will eventually have some sort of smart contact lenses or smart glasses or augmented realities, we can have a mode or some little button on the frame and your lens. You push and it's something quite frictionless.

Kate: [06:44] Where you can tell exactly what that is and where you can get it from.

Kevin: [06:48] Yeah.

Kate: [06:48] Helpful. Pinterest aren't the only ones doing this. Probably Instagram have tried it as well, like integrating the shopping experience straight into the app and making it...Reducing the friction between the social media platform and the stucco website that you buy it from.

Kevin: [07:10] Now you've used Pinterest quite a lot, don't you?

Kate: [07:13] Yeah.

Kevin: [07:14] I think there are about 150 million people who use Pinterest regularly. I think there are approximately about 400 million people that use Twitter regularly.

[07:21] I think there are about 500, 600 million that use Instagram regularly and there's billions that use Facebook regularly. Pinterest is on the lower end but it is quite niched and it's...

Kate: [07:32] They're not even advertising as a social media platform anymore. They are a search and discovery tool. It's like visual bookmarking.

Kevin: [07:44] It's fantastic when you need visual references. When we were moving into our new office and we were looking at fitting it out and coming up with some ideas. When you go into Pinterest and you look at good office fit-outs and things like that. Boom! You've got it right there.

Kate: [07:59] Ideas.

Kevin: [07:59] Ideas. It's a great source of inspiration.

Kate: [08:02] Yeah. The main reason I use it is just to collect ideas, collect images and sort them into boards, which are for lack of a better word, folders.

Kevin: [08:12] Pinterest is also really unique. It was one of the only social media networks that wasn't seeded so to speak in Silicon Valley.

[08:20] Pinterest actually grew out of housewives in the Midwest of the US sharing, I don't know if it was recipes or food or what they were sharing, but it was quite unique in that way.

[08:32] It's always had a different DNA to the other social media networks because of that. It's not really a so...It has social media elements to it, but its core is not conversation and engaging and networking.

Kate: [08:48] No. You could follow each other. You definitely have like friends and followers and there is accounts, Pinterest famous, I guess and they've got thousands and thousands of pins. Yeah, it sort of lacks that chatty element.

Kevin: [09:02] OK. That's Pinterest. We'll keep an eye. I'm going to actually log back to Pinterest. I don't even think I have the app on my phone anymore.

Kate: [09:11] Oh no. Actually, the third visual tool they've released actually is in the home page which I really like. Based on your interest, it displays all sorts of pictures. Then if you see something that you like, say it's pictures of dogs, for example.

[09:31] There is one picture of a dog and then there is like plants and cameras. If you want to see more of the dogs, you'll click this little circle in the corner of the picture and it will give you like another five, six image of dogs that are similar, right inside your home page. It's good. You don't have to actually think about typing words anymore.

Kevin: [09:51] There is so much good content out of the net. It's a huge area of surfacing the right things at the right at time.

[10:01] I think all the social media platforms are working hard at getting their algorithms right and surfing the right things at the right time. Then you'll coming back if there is a high signal to noise ratio and they do the curation for you. It would be useful.

Kate: [10:15] There's an interesting features to it. You take a snippet of that photo and it automatically displaced off that similar. The idea is for fashion. If you do it for jeans or display all these other jeans. In terms of design and artworks, what I found was there'd be a particular pattern or color and you could zoom in on and it would find other things similar to that.

Kevin: [10:41] Almost like a genre right? If you would almost Shazam a certain song, if you Shazam, I don't know, Bob Dylan, it would bring up all the singer-songwriters. This kind of thing.

Kate: [10:52] Really smart.

Kevin: [10:53] It's the same things with Spotify. I was lucky enough two years ago to bump into the band, Daughter, which are relatively well-known Indie band. I bumped into them at the show by another Indie band called Warpaint.

[11:08] My friend who was with us that time was quite bold and went up to them and spoke to Daughter. We spoke to them for about 20 minutes.

[11:15] I actually asked one of their guys. I said "What do you think of Spotify?" He said, "Look, it's definitely impacted bands commercially negatively," he said, "But I usually even to discover new bands."

Kate: [11:29] That's a good platform.

Kevin: [11:31] The discovery side of Spotify is...even in the days when Pandora which was the first streaming service way back when. I don't know when Pandora first launched it was ages ago. That's when you just first realize as a music level...Wow!

[11:46] The discovery suddenly...You click on Bob Dylan radio and suddenly there's a song that's beautiful, you've never heard. You've discovered that there's this artist that's been around for 20 years you've never heard of. It's amazing. I can see with Pinterest how it's been an angular...I'll skip that word.

[12:06] [laughter]

Kevin: [12:06] Similar to that way. It discovers a similar style or genre. I can see the value now particularly in fashion and those areas where there's some type of discovery that you want to do as well.

Kate: [12:23] Well the biggest thing as well is if you don't know your different art movements, or different styles of design, if you can't think of the word for it then it's hard to find it. He can mutually just say, "Ah, that corner of the image," and it brings up everything similar.

Kevin: [12:41] Computers and AI, and all that getting very smart. Getting very interesting.

Kate: [12:46] It's worth checking out.

Kevin: [12:47] LanMask actually said this week that the middle class is going to be desonated by automation. They're pushing for this guaranteed income-type philosophy which is a whole other topic, which we should probably talk about someday with a lot about jobs are going to be automated.

[13:10] All of these tools by Pinterest and Spotify, there's a lot of AI and machine learning involved in them. It's just getting better and better.

[13:21] Another interesting story which I really liked when I saw the story. The future is here, "Dubai plans to introduce flying drone taxis as early as this summer." Kate, how cool is this?

Kate: [13:33] Pretty cool.

Kevin: [13:34] Pretty cool right? Dubai considering using the EHang 184 autonomous quad-opener electric drone to ferry people through the air.

[13:45] This drone is a one person drone. I'm looking at a photo here. It was at CES. It looks like a tiny little chopper, a giant autonomous drone. It was founded in 2014 and rose about 50 million invention funding.

[14:06] Dubai are looking at rolling it out for real. It's an unmanned drone. You hop in and it ships you across the city and lands.

Kate: [14:17] It's interesting as well the two articles I also looking at. One which mentioned it being at CES. That article says at the bottom, "It will be a few years until we see this technology in use." Now, the most current article says it will be here in summer.

Kevin: [14:32] Fantastic.

Kate: [14:33] It's quite a big leap.

Kevin: [14:35] Kudos to the first city that pulls this off, right?

Kate: [14:39] Mm-hmm. Well it's looking like Dubai.

Kevin: [14:44] Obviously there are huge safety issues and things that they really have to have right.

Kate: [14:53] I read that in terms of safety, they'll land it immediately if the passenger needs to land. Where are you going to land it? It's not like there's a helipad on every building or anything.

Kevin: [15:11] We'll definitely watch the story with interest. The Ehang 184 is a drone that can carry one passenger with a maximum weight of 220 pounds. That's about 100 kilos or something around there. For a distance of 31 miles. What's that? Seventy kilometers, something around there.

Kate: [15:25] 50.

Kevin: [15:26] Dear America, please go metric. It's enough, 50 kilometers which is pretty far on one charge at a top speed of 100 miles per hour. Just what? 180 kilometers an hour. Something like that.

Kate: [15:40] 160.

Kevin: [15:41] See? Kate's one my...she's such a fantastic team member. Always prepared, right?

Kate: [15:47] I had to google it. Not actually on the spot.

Kevin: [15:53] Dubai officials will remotely monitor the drones and pilot them from a centralized command center. The city says it's already started test flying the vehicle in Dubai skies. This just isn't pure blaster. Fantastic!

[16:06] I'd love to see how this is going to play out. Of course, wow. The future is finally here where you'll walk around and you'll see these little drones.

[16:15] The advantage with self-driving vehicles, it's very easy for them to know exactly where the other is and to coordinate with each other.

[16:27] Humans can find that quite difficult. That's why we have to have roads and traffics light and things like that. We can't have an automated sense and know where everyone is.

[16:37] Vehicles, they can...no problem them knowing where another thousand vehicles are, and how it impacts them, and what routes they have to take. It's not a problem at all. In the scheme of things, super, super easy. Even in a three-dimensional environment like flying, it's not a problem at all.

[16:55] A lot easier for computers to do than pilots to do so. In theory, shouldn't be a problem at all as long as the basic safety, and engineering, and checks and balances, and if the battery suddenly runs flat or something like that happens.

Kate: [17:10] They do say that this EHang will be remotely monitored by officials. I'd love to know what that entails.

Kevin: [17:19] They have to take that over right?

Kate: [17:22] Yeah. The actual passenger only puts in their destination into a map and then they just sit back. They don't have any control.

Kevin: [17:27] Would you take one?

Kate: [17:30] Maybe. Eventually. I don't think I'd be an aerial doctor.

Kevin: [17:36] I would definitely wait a few years personally. I'm sure it's fine, but if something will go wrong, it will go...

Kate: [17:43] Catastrophically wrong.

Kevin: [17:44] Yeah, catastrophically wrong and the wheels will come off terribly. I'm sure they realize that the stakes are pretty high. This is something that cities...It would be fantastic if cities realized the marketing potential of things like this. If Sydney was that progressive and doing things like that and...

Kate: [18:09] It does seem like a big leap though. We don't even really have that big of an industry around just delivering packages via drone. I feel like the first thing to change would be the mailing system rather than...

Kevin: [18:23] Humans are essentially just packages, though, right?

Kate: [18:26] Maybe.

Kevin: [18:27] I mean there's not that much of a difference which is the 100 kilogram...

Kate: [18:30] You're dealing with immaterial goods versus lives.

Kevin: [18:31] That's true. The stakes aren't as high. I think it's quite an inefficient...What worries me is to have a drone in the air for one person. The visual pollution, the noise pollution for one person?

Kate: [18:46] Yeah.

Kevin: [18:47] From a policy perspective, it's quite a novelty appeal and, in terms of technological advancement, do you want to live in a city where there's drones buzzing overhead? I don't particularly...

Kate: [18:56] Depends if they're noisy or not.

Kevin: [18:57] They'll probably be relatively silent, eventually, especially if they're electric.

Kate: [19:02] Wonder how expensive they would be for one ride.

Kevin: [19:08] For one ride, yeah. I think a 4, 5, 10 person drone, to me that makes a lot of sense, because at least you're getting a little bit of efficiencies and economies of scales. To have everyone in their own little flying drone...in big cities, Sydney's got four million people and how many people take trains every day, and suddenly you're going to have millions of little drones...anyway.

[19:35] From a policy perspective, maybe make it expensive, tax it, and put that back into trains. Trains are the only thing that really can scale in cities at this stage to move a lot of people quickly.

Kate: [19:50] Yeah. What I find interesting -- it's sort of bit of off topic -- but with trains it's...In Sydney we have double-decker trains, so we have two levels in every carriage, and then, on some lines they're looking to change that back to a single level again. I know lots of other countries and they have single levels. I think Melbourne also has single level, but I don't see how that's scalable. Why not build all trains with two levels, because then, there are going to be more people.

Kevin: [20:19] There's a lot of politics in transport and a lot of vested interests. Sydney trains are quite slow compared to a lot of cities. They're bigger but they're slower.

Kate: [20:29] Yeah.

Kevin: [20:29] New York trains are quick. They stop quickly, they start quickly. Sidney trains, sometimes, it's all a bit late back. If anything, they should speed them up a little bit.

[20:40] [laughter]

Kate: [20:40] A little bit. They've improved the train announcements. Have you noticed lately?

Kevin: [20:47] They have been improvements across the board.

Kate: [20:49] You get some interesting characters announcing the stops and, "Hoping everybody had a lovely day!"

Kevin: [20:56] To our customers," yeah. Anyway, you're listening to Episode 81 of the "It's a Monkey Podcast." Please email us at itsamonkey.com. You can actually email an MP3 file and give us some comments, and we'll give your company a shout-out on the show.

[21:11] We love hearing from our listeners. Give us a review on iTunes, follow us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, stay in touch with us. We're going to take a short break, and we'll be back with that interview with Glenn Rubenstein talking about podcasts after this short break.

[21:27] [pre-recorded material]

Dave: [21:29] Hi. This is Dave with ManageFlitter. ManageFlitter is a tool that helps you work smarter and faster on Twitter. With ManageFlitter, you can clean up and grow your Twitter account. You will also get useful Twitter analytics, social content scheduling, and much more. Go to manageflitter.com and start your free trial today.

[21:47] [end of pre-recorded material]

Kevin: [21:49] You're back with It's a Monkey Podcast, my name is Kevin Garber. We talk about everything tech, startup, tech economy, entrepreneurship, and interestingly, we're going to go a little bit meta on this podcast. It's something I've wanted to talk about for a little while, as we're actually going to talk about podcasts on the podcast.

[22:09] On my Skype line is Glenn Rubenstein who's the founder of ADOPTER Media and author of the book "Podcast Advertising Works." Glenn, thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Glenn Rubenstein: [22:18] Thanks for having me.

Kevin: [22:20] Over the last 18 months or so, maybe two years, but particularly over the last 18 months, podcast seems to have exploded, and on Twitter everyone's tweeting out about their podcast or another podcast or all the traditional media agencies. I see Bloomberg launched a tech podcast a couple of months ago. Tell us a little bit of the lay of the land about the podcast state of affairs.

Glenn: [22:44] This has just been a crazy year for podcasts. According to Edison Research, we saw the greatest growth year over year, 2015 going into 2016, and now we're at the point where more than one in five Americans has listened to a podcast within the last month.

[22:59] We're talking, that's a substantial number of people, right? I mean that's over 50 million Americans, and we're seeing that a billion post listings per year dedicated to podcasts.

[23:13] This year started off with people estimating that podcast advertising was going to be worth somewhere between 50-75 million, and everyone that I'm talking to that I work in this business with is saying, "Oh, that's much too low, that's much too low." I think, unofficially, podcast advertising spending has broken 100 million this year and it's only going to get bigger as we head into 2017.

Kevin: [23:33] Podcasts have been around for a while. I think probably 2000 or 2004, somewhere around there. What's really kicked off this critical massive growth over the last year or so?

Glenn: [23:49] It's interesting. I had to consolidate this history down when writing my book and talking about the history of podcasts and how podcast advertising came about. What's amazing is you're absolutely right that podcasts grew organically as digital audio, almost radio released in digital form between 2000 and 2004.

[24:09] Then, what we saw is it tapered off after that. It was a bit of a buzz word, and it really came back with a vengeance, once smartphones were readily available and you no longer had to sync MP3s to your iPod to listen to podcasts. You could just click a button and start listening. From there, we've seen year over year amazing growth as the technology gets easier to consume these.

[24:34] With that growth has come bigger and better podcasts. I think really the turning point to where this went form an emerging fringe medium where people could get, for instance, tech-oriented podcasts or business-oriented podcasts is when we started to see it become an art form and medium onto itself with podcasts like Serial and StartUp, all the work that's been done in the comedy space.

[24:58] I would really say Serial and StartUp, specifically 2014, is when things really blew wide open, and now it's starting to replace radio for many people, "Well, we just listen to what we want, when we want, and programing specifically about the topics that we want with the personalities we want to hear. We're no longer victims of what's on the radio. You know, in what people are offering us, we can really seek out our own interests."

[25:25] Just now, it's gotten to the point where it's just insane. The amount of podcasts seems to be growing at an unprecedented pace.

Kevin: [25:34] Do you think we've reached peak podcast? Do you think it's going to plateau off? There's only so many hours that people can listen to content. It almost feels...I've even noticed with myself.

[25:49] I started my life in live talkback radio and, obviously, now a tech company and a podcast. I even noticed myself that I'm struggling to keep up with my regular podcast, because it's become really thinned out by the number of podcasts available.

Glenn: [26:07] To an extent, I think that certainly it's becoming more competitive in terms of going after people's ears. We have more options than ever, and maybe you're seeing that people are listening to the same podcast for a period of time, catching up on a podcast, binge listening through a bunch, but there are more options available than ever.

[26:26] I think because of that, people are going to get pickier and start rotating where they're devoting their time, effort, and energy in what they listen to.

[26:33] In a way, that's sort of an opportunity, because it means that we're going to see more diversification in what people are subscribing to, what people are discovering. This feel that I think it presents the opportunity for not to be dominated by these core players.

[26:48] The Chris Hardwicks of the world, the Marc Marons of the world, the StartUps, the Tweets, all of these big players that have consumed a huge amount of audience share.

[26:58] Now I think we're going to see a little more rotation, and it's going to give it a real chance for new people to come on the scene and capture attention.

Kevin: [27:04] Do traditional media formats, newspapers, TV stations, do they understand the podcast phenomena?

Glenn: [27:14] Yes and no. I think some do, but it's tough. I really don't want to call anyone out specifically for not understanding the medium. Let me just say that I've heard some content that is very, very good, I've heard some content that is very, very bad, and the attitude at some places is, "Hey, let's really get in and understand this and create content that serves the medium well."

[27:38] With others it's, "Eh, well, let's take some associate writers or producers and put them in front of a microphone and just, you know, we'll release this as a podcast, 'cause that's the hip thing right now." What you were saying, being at the peak level of podcast -- which I don't think we're at yet, by the way -- I think we're going to see even more now because it's more and more people realizing there's serious money to be made.

[27:59] They're trying to rush in to get their share of that, but I think that's what's really going to separate the quality content form media companies just throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Kevin: [28:10] Before we talk about the advertising side of it...if someone's listening to this podcast and they've thinking of starting a podcast, give us a few tips of tips of what you see works in a podcast. Even for someone who does an established podcast, you've obviously listened to a lot of podcasts, you have a lot of clients in that industry. What are some takeaways for people that would like to start a podcast or already have one to improve it?

Glenn: [28:40] Here's the first big one, and it's amazing how often this gets overlooked. Your audio quality has to be unpar with what else is out there...Oh, my God.

Kevin: [28:49] Absolutely. I'm sitting in front of a broadcast quality mic that cost us 800 bucks or something similar, a directional mic. One of my favorite podcasts is James Altucher, and I tweeted him many times saying, "Love the content, but your quality, man!" and I've noticed over the last few months he's just upped his case significantly. I couldn't agree with you more on that one.

Glenn: [29:14] Let me tell you. I'm sitting here, in front of my rig, and there's just a simple example more than a plug, because certainly there are not of a sponsor, but broadcast supply worldwide.

[29:24] I got a package with a high LPi40, a nice boom telescoping arm, a breakout box to hook into my computer, and it was $600 for the complete setup. It's not hard, it's easier than even for a very, very small investment to produce something that sounds just good as the major media companies and major podcaster are doing, so you have no excuse for having bad audio...

Kevin: [29:49] And it lasts a long time. The good quality or the equipment will last you forever.

Glenn: [29:55] Absolutely, so that's number one. I'm telling you that no sponsor, and certainly audiences won't take you seriously, if you don't sound good. Remember, your voice is going to be going directly into people's ears. They're going to be spending time with you whether it's in their car or with their ear buds on, and there's no reason not to have a good sound in podcasts, that's number one.

Kevin: [30:21] Tied in with that is the editing process, and that's actually something we've struggled with a little bit. Once you get multiple voices...

[30:28] We do the interview on Skype, and then I chat with my co-host, Kate, and she is in the studio with me on another mic, and we bring it into logic. We're not audio engineers, and the editing process is also part of the quality. That's where I find it can get a little bit trickier, more than just having a great quality mic.

Glenn: [30:50] Interviews can be tricky, because you're interviewing people that might be using a headset mike. They might be using ear buds. The good news is that audio tools are readily available to where you can clean up the sound and really make it shine, make it sound consumable.

[31:03] That's certainly the first part of the equation. The second, now, if you're going to start a podcast, what is your unique hook? What are you bringing to this medium that no one else is? The reason I say that is look through iTunes, just look through Stitcher.

[31:20] See what else is out there, and realize there are podcasts in so many topics that you have to come at it from a unique approach. Unless you have a massive following already, you need to give people a reason to pay attention to you.

[31:33] With that, it can't just be the quality of the conversations that you're having. You have to be able to do your elevator pitch as it were. Explain to people, in two sentences, what's your wall climb, what's your podcast's about. Hopefully, it's compelling.

Kevin: [31:48] One of the criticisms I have of the current state of podcasting is that most people are going for these hyper-niched podcasts based on one interview. That's fantastic to some degree. In a way, it also lacks a little bit of intimacy and a little bit of personality.

[32:06] We try to make our show a little bit more magazine-like, a little bit more conversational, and then a little bit of warmth and intimacy. What are your thoughts about going that hyper-niched one interview verse making something a little bit broad?

[32:21] I agree it can become self-indulgent and tedious and boring as well. That's where it can actually get tricky.

Glenn: [32:28] It works for the right personalities. That's what people are listening for. I have listened to episodes of your podcast. I find you quite pleasant to listen to and very entertaining. With the right personality, I want to spend time with that person.

[32:41] That's really part of the reason transitioning to why the advertising works is because we're spending time with these voices, these people that we almost feel like our friends in a way or their advisers, their authoritative experts as it were.

[32:58] If your personality isn't necessarily the most likable, then maybe you want to veer towards hyper-niche in the sense that, "OK, we know exactly what we're getting when we listen to this."

[33:09] Your likability and intimacy, that credibility of connection with your audience is super important on all levels of your podcast succeeding both in terms of building an audience base and, definitely, in terms of getting sponsors.

Kevin: [33:21] Any other tips on kicking off a podcast?

Glenn: [33:25] I would recommend also to get a bunch of episodes in the cam and recorded before you release it.

[33:31] Right now, we're seeing so many people that launch podcasts. They're just cluttering up iTunes. They're cluttering up Stitcher where it's like, "Hey, we put out the first episode."

[33:40] Maybe there'll be a second episode. Maybe there'd be a third episode. Consistency is so key that...Let me just tell. You this is a basic marketing tip for podcasts, is that if you release a new podcast, and you're going to hit [inaudible] on iTunes, and you're going to be sending people to check it out from your website, from your Twitter following, from your email list.

[33:59] Why do you want them to go there and have one episode to listen to when they can go there and listen to six episodes to listen to, to get started with. Then, you can release new episodes on a weekly basis after that.

[34:09] Giving people that good old backlog to start with is fantastic. I don't know how many times you've done this, but when I discover a new podcast. I fall in love with it, I just want to keep listening to it. I want more and more and more. Why not take advantage of that opportunity when you have people's initial attention to get them fully hooked and entrenched. Then, start feeding them new content.

Kevin: [34:29] I'm actually been on long drives before. Australia, like America, is a big country. I've been on ten-hour drives before where I've listened to one podcast, the whole series or as many as I can on that whole drive. By the end of it, I really like feel I like it.

[34:44] I often think to myself, "I wonder if this host knows if they've kept me company for 10 hours."

Glenn: [34:50] Isn't that weird? I have that experience when I meet podcasters. To me, I'm like, "We already have a relationship." They spend all this time inside my head. I feel like I'm just listening to them, and I'm captivated by them.

[35:00] Then, I'll meet them in person, or talk to them on the phone, placing ads there. I feel like I've known this person forever. I feel closer to some of them than I do my own family.

Kevin: [35:09] It's interesting. I'm originally from South Africa. I was in South Africa for the World Cup in 2010. One of my friends from radio there, Damon Kalvari, he was the on-air sidekick of a very well-known presenter called Gareth Cliff. Think of, mildly, the equivalent of how it's done.

[35:28] We were at a soccer game. I was there with Damon. He's quite a loud, boisterous character. A woman turned her head, and said, "On my word, are you Damon? I recognize that voice." He doesn't have a physical profile. He's not on TV. He's not very well-known, but she picked him out of the crowd.

[35:52] It's just that identification was so strong that she just picked him out of the crowd and noticed his voice there, and was very excited to meet him in the flesh.

[36:04] It's always been radio strength and, obviously, not podcast strength, is that intimacy. It's an incredibly personal and intimate medium.

Glenn: [36:13] It's funny, too, when you mentioned that. If you look at the pioneers of podcasting and those that push the medium along and brought new people into it, isn't it funny that, by and large, it was radio professionals.

[36:26] My former boss, Leo Laporte, great example of this. He has been in radio and TV for 30 years, started podcasting. He was able to translate that connection into tweet and doing tech podcasts. Adam Carolla, certainly, in leaving terrestrial radio.

[36:40] Literally, ending terrestrial radio on a Friday, launching his podcast on a Monday, and bringing a large share of that audience with him. Marc Maron worked at Air America, which was a liberal radio network that was shutting down. He produced the first episodes of WTF in their studios.

[37:01] It's really interesting how that power of connection, actually, got more intense and more intimate in terms of going to podcasting rather than just being on the air and being broadcast.

Kevin: [37:12] You can just cover them quickly. We started a podcast for various reasons. One is I enjoy it. It's a lot of fun. Secondly, it's an excuse for our customers and potential customers to hear a little bit what we're about and the people behind the product.

[37:34] Thirdly, it actually gives me an excuse to reach out to interesting people such as yourself. It's a lot easier to reach out to you, and say, "Hey, do you want to have a chat about what you're working on," as opposed to just, "Let's meet and have a chat."

[37:46] Some people might actually want to make cold cash out of their podcast. That's where someone like...We hope it trickles through indirectly through our product.

[37:56] Some people want to actually turn it into a business or a revenue stream. Tell us a little bit on that. You knee-deep in that side of things as well.

Glenn: [38:05] There's a lot of money to be made in podcasts. I you read the stories out there, you have people that are now clearing millions of dollars a year through podcast networks or rather in networks. They're clearing millions of dollars a year.

[38:20] The business is worth, easily, $100 million this year. What I would say is that, if money is your first and foremost motivation, podcasting might not be the best place to start. That being said, if you do have a quality product, and you have a decent audience...It doesn't even have to be a huge audience, but if you have a highly-engaged audience, there is certainly money to be made by featuring ads on your podcast.

Kevin: [38:44] What type of numbers of regular listeners? Are you talking 10,000, 5,000? it just depends on how engaged they are and how niched it is. Just give us an overall broad metrics.

Glenn: [38:56] I think 10,000 is a good number of viability. There's some podcasts out there that make money with less than that if they have a targeted hyperspecialized audience. I think 10,000 is really the threshold.

[39:09] Look at it this way. You're charging a CPM, cost per thousand, on your podcast. Even if you're charging a $20 CPM, which is in the standard low and average for the business...With 10,000 listeners, you're talking about $200 net, which is pretty good money, especially if you consider the amount of effort that's involved in producing a podcast ad.

[39:34] The idea is that you want something worth your while to go through the process to court sponsors or interact with sponsors that are approaching you. I think that 10,000 is about the number, yeah, where it starts to seem viable.

[39:49] Now, if you have a super-specialized audience...Let's say you reached 10,000 people, and they're all entrepreneurs. They're looking for stuff to start their businesses and improve their businesses and buy stuff. You might be able to get a $40 CPM.

[40:01] There's some entrepreneur podcasts who are even getting $100 CPM, believe it or not. Do the math there. With 10,000, you can get $1,000 net. You could see how it scales. Imagine, when you hear about these podcasts, about the numbers that Bill Simmons is doing, or Adam Carolla is doing, or Leo Laporte is doing, you have numbers that are in hundreds of thousands.

[40:20] You can understand where, if you blow up, you could have a hugely successful business. Even at a small audience of 10,000, you could have a nice side income.

Kevin: [40:32] You're mentioning these metrics, 10,000 and 100,000. In terms of actually monitoring these metrics, the tools are pretty rudimentary, aren't they? You can't really tell if someone listens to the end of a podcast.

[40:45] You can't tell if they kick off, or they download it. Any new tools, or any techniques that you can actually get more accurate metrics around your podcast listeners?

Glenn: [40:59] There's some, but I will tell you that because the business is making 100 million plus a year ,as is, with the limited metrics that we have, which really comes down to server logs. It's like having a hit counter for unique IPs, essentially, regardless of the stat tracking service that you use.

[41:17] The business is worth $100 million, and people are paying it, where it's not really in the industry's best interest to drill down in these metrics. Lex Friedman, chief revenue officer at Midroll had a great quote on a podcast, which was, "We might improve the metrics, but we're still going to charge you the same end amount, because the market has proven that people will pay that."

[41:40] It might change the calculation for how we get to that end amount, but it's still going to be the same cost as it were. Right now, it's CPM-based, based on streams or downloads, which are essentially that there are hits of people accessing the MP3 file based on one time per IP address.

[41:57] Where it really shakes out though is...That's a rough estimate. Let's say that your stats show you that 10,000 in change, people listen to your episodes. If you're doing north of 10,000 downloads per episode, then 10,000 is your baseline.

[42:13] That's where you're going to charge people out with the CPM. The key is this, you're absolutely right that even though there's 10,000 downloads, we don't know how many people actually listen to it, made it five minutes in, 20 minutes in, all the way to the end of the podcast.

[42:28] Here's what we do know, is that if I charge somebody $20 CPM for your 10,000 listeners, they pay $200 to advertising your podcast, I can guarantee you that if they do not see a return pretty close to that $200 on that specific ad, they're not coming back.

Kevin: [42:44] That's what it comes down to at the end of the day, is whether they get a payoff from it.

Glenn: [42:49] It's all return on investment. People do not care about what the numbers are unless it's a situation where an ad just bombs, and then it's like, "Hey, can we just verify? Did 10,000 people really download that if we made zero sales."

[43:01] Those are the only times when I see people really concerned about that, but by and large, this is an ROI-driven business. That's what brings people back, show after show, month after month, quarter after quarter, year after year.

[43:15] When you hear some of the sponsors that have been on podcasts for years, they're not just doing it because they like the podcast. They're making money. They're seeing a profit. I point to that when talking to advertisers that want to get into this.

[43:28] That's actually the benefit that more established podcasts have right now, is a track record. As a new podcast, your greatest challenge is going to be proving to your first advertisers that it's going to work for them.

[43:40] If I'm selling a podcast that's been around for five years, I have a rich advertiser history that I can show to any potential advertiser, and say, "Hey, look. Sponsor X has been on the show for five years." That's showing that it's working for them.

Kevin: [43:56] Do you use any other podcast tools not so much for creating podcasts but for listening to podcasts. You mentioned Stitcher. You mentioned iTunes. I use a play-on-my-android-podcast-to-public, which I really like.

[44:09] Any other listening curation ration tools that you use that may be of interest to someone listening to the show?

Glenn: [44:16] Overcast is great. I like their features as far as what you can do with audio quality and the ways that you can tweak your listening experience. For me, I got to tell you, iTunes does a really good job. They have people. They have a department that curates what they're showcasing there.

[44:31] For me, and what I do in my business, it's important to just look at what's new. What are the new podcasts that are out there? I know, also, that if it's on iTunes, that it's someone that went through the leg work to do this the right way to get their podcast there.

[44:46] Even in [inaudible] . If it's hitting the charts, I know that there's a certain criteria of quality is being met. I'll tell you what drives me crazy is that I see people releasing new podcasts. These are names, sometimes, or they're minor names and opposed to link. They're only publishing it to SoundCloud.

[45:06] That's where you find it. They're publishing on their website. That's the only place where you can get it. It's very, very important to make those RSS feeds available and to just publish them every single place that you can.

Kevin: [45:18] It is such a big bare of mind to find RSS feeds for podcasts. It's sometimes so difficult to find. Sometimes, they're only putting it, as you mentioned, on SoundCloud or YouTube. Sometimes, they've got an error on the RSS link.

[45:34] There's someone that actually even created a little online tool where you put in the iTunes link for the podcast, and it spits out the clean RSS feed, which is actually really useful. Sometimes, if it's only on iTunes, and you're not using iTunes, it's actually quite tricky to find the RSS feed to put into your podcast program that's not iTunes.

Glenn: [45:59] That's so important just to figure out how to do that. There are tools out there. You could see that people now are starting to experiment more with this. Libsyn is a good example. Libsyn will publish you to many of the top podcasts and portals.

[46:14] Many of the portals will pick up feeds from other sources. They're even in our spider iTunes just to make sure that they've got everything there. It's important to know what the platforms are. It's funny you mentioned YouTube.

[46:25] YouTube is one of the ones a lot of people don't realize. Some podcasts are audio and video. Even if your podcast is audio only, just toss up a graphic, drop it into Windows Movie Maker or iMovie. [inaudible] and just push a video version, so people can [inaudible] as well.

[46:46] You want to be as many different places as possible with your podcast. The important thing then is to figure out, if you're doing something like YouTube, factor in those numbers as well. Go to YouTube, get your YouTube numbers, get your SoundCloud numbers, and then factor that in with your reporting on something like Libsyn.

Kevin: [47:01] YouTube's great for discovery as well. People stumble unto all things on YouTube. We experimented yesterday on our episode 71 that's going to be broadcasted tomorrow with us live streaming it on Periscope as well whilst they're actually recording it.

[47:22] Everything takes effort in everything's head's space. People should focus on quality, is the number one. It's fun to experiment with the little bits and pieces. Definitely, dumping it on YouTube is pretty straightforward.

[47:37] If someone's putting together a podcast, just make sure...RSS feeds are a slippery concept for people that aren't technical. That's for them to test their own RSS feeds and understand what it's like.

[47:51] If you are putting a podcast together, make sure you chat to your tech person and just say, "Is it easy for someone to find the RSS feed?"

[47:57] That will allow someone to just copy and paste that into any podcast's program and listen to. Not everyone uses iTunes as well. Especially, android people don't use iTunes. I don't use iTunes. I used to in the old days. I don't use iTunes anymore.

Glenn: [48:16] They're still really good with it. I know Google Play has launched podcasts this year. Again, I'm an IOS user. I don't really know how good they are with their curation of podcasts, but I know that they're available on the app platform now.

[48:29] Spotify is another one that has made podcasts available. Then, of course, you have the TuneIns, the Stitchers, the iHeartRadios of the world. Libsyn, from what I understand, it's a couple bucks a month. They will do your podcast hosting and blast you out there to a lot of the top portals. iTunes, obviously, included.

[48:47] I recommend services like that if you're just not a technical person at all. That's a great way to do it. I'm going back to YouTube for a second.

[48:54] One thing, if you want to do a podcast that's got a live feel to it and doesn't require a lot of editing. You can record it live on YouTube and even have a chat where you can have people watch you recording live by doing a hangout on-air through YouTube. Using Google Hangouts to record and then just download the video after that, take the audio out of it. Bam, you've got a podcast.

Kevin: [49:18] Added up to media, you guys work with podcasters and advertisers and try to stitch deals between the two?

Glenn: [49:26] Yes, we're a hybrid model. On one hand, we have a select group of podcasters that we really think are incredibly strong, are doing great content. We know how to get ads for those specific topics. What we do is we'll control their entire ad process in terms of securing ad deals for them, negotiating ad deals, and doing their reporting.

[49:52] We're full service in that capacity. The larger part of our business is that we work with advertisers. There are many advertisers out there where we are their exclusive podcast advertising agency.

[50:02] They will come to us and say, "Hey, we want to get in the space. Can you identify podcasts that will be a great fit for our product and service. Help put together a budget, a media plan, negotiate rates, negotiate prices, come up with creative, and really secure, and execute these campaigns for them."

[50:21] We go back and forth on where we think the real business is in the long-term. I have to say, bringing new advertisers into this medium and educating them about this -- bringing them is this medium that helping them succeed -- that's been just a really great process.

[50:37] We're seeing a lot more growth on that front as more and more advertisers want to get into the space.

Kevin: [50:43] Glenn Rubenstein from adoptive media. We'll put all your links on our show notes. It's a really interesting chat. I'm sure the podcast industry is going to continue to go from strength to strength.

[50:53] I'm sure we'll, hopefully, see some interesting ways that people are going to be using this format. We're lucky to be involved in such an intimate medium, so to speak. I appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us.

Glenn: [51:09] No, thanks or having me. I encourage people definitely. Check out the book on Amazon. If anyone has any questions, feel free to just shoot me an email on glenn@adapter.media.

Kevin: [51:18] We'll put all the details on the show notes on itsamonkey.com. They'll be able to track you down from there.

Glenn: [51:23] Fantastic. Thanks.

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Kevin: [52:05] Kate, there's been an interesting explosion of podcast over the last couple of years, every now and then, on my Facebook feed, someone's like, "I've just discovered podcasts. Can people tell me what your favorite podcasts are?"

[52:19] People have really discovered podcasts, I think, because on demand, just like people discovered Netflix, on demand is just so much more pleasant, generally. There are exceptions, but generally it is so much more pleasant when you can hone in and listen to what you want to, when you want to and ad free. At least, very light on the ads, compared to commercial TV or radio.

Kate: [52:49] He does make a good point about seeking out your own interests and not being limited by what the radio stations want you to listen to.

Kevin: [52:56] Yes, and they're relatively easy to put together. To put anything together takes effort, but compared to the old days, where you needed a broadcasting license and a broadcast studio, literally anyone can fire up their own podcast today with a microphone and a computer.

[53:19] I think the podcasts that do the best are the highly-niched podcasts. It's become obviously much more competitive. We've been doing this podcast for a while, and you have to keep the quality up the whole time.

[53:37] We've noticed there is a big spike when there are higher profile guests. People like hearing from well-known, smart people. Just like blogging or any types of content work, you have to really keep the content up.

[53:52] I think podcasts also, the advantage of blogging is most people find talking more fun than writing, I think.

Kate: [54:03] I don't know.

Kevin: [54:05] You don't agree?

Kate: [54:06] I prefer writing.

Kevin: [54:04] You do?

Kate: [54:05] Definitely, but depends on the person. Talking sometimes is easier to consume and you can multitask. If you're listening to something, you can keep doing something else, whereas if you're writing something, you can't really do two at once.

Kevin: [54:21] No, you definitely can't write and do something else. What are some of your favorite podcasts that you listen to?

Kate: [54:26] I don't listen to all that regularly, but there is one that I don't mind called "Being Boss."

Kevin: [54:34] I've got a list. I'm subscribed to, I don't know, 30 or 40. It's one of those on my list. I don't think I've ever listened to it though.

Kate: [54:43] It's two entrepreneurial women and they have guests as well. They do short snippets, but also long form ones as well. They really mix it up. It's quite interesting.

Kevin: [54:54] Any others?

Kate: [54:56] There is one, although escapes me now.

Kevin: [55:00] I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot on this entrepreneurial side of things. James Altucher, I really like his podcasts.

[55:08] There's author Christopher Ryan who's a sociological, anthropological author. He does a very random podcast with random guests around the world that he meets. He's quite interesting.

[55:24] Another one of my favorite non-business ones is a woman called Krista Tippett. She interviews really interesting...I want to use the words "spiritual people," but that's a bit airy-fairy. For instance she's got Alain de Botton on these podcasts talking about something. She's got very famous poets, very famous authors, famous Buddhist monks, and people like that.

[55:54] She's a fantastic interviewer and that's definitely one of my favorite non-business podcasts.

[56:00] There's some really, really good business podcasts out there, some really outstanding. Stanford put together a podcast series where part of one of the entrepreneurial courses has a guest every week. They put that up as a podcast when classes are in session. They've had the who's who on these podcasts.

[56:20] They're an incredible way to listen and learn, especially when you're exercising or cleaning. Sometimes I'm in the mood for more formal rigorous discussion. Sometimes I'm in the mood for less businessy and something more light and conversational. That's definitely what we try to do on these podcasts. We try to have something that's a little bit lighter and more conversational that is someone wants a bit of company while they're doing something feel like they're sort of with us as opposed to just a nice, factual interview, that's what we try to do.

[56:55] Radio was always a very intimate medium and people would listen to radio to keep them company. Sometimes I find, especially some of the business ones, they're very in and out on the interview. You can learn a lot but I would say there's no sort of warmth in them. It doesn't feel like you're sitting in a room with them.

[57:17] With this podcast, I've always wanted it to be that people are only sitting in on an interesting discussion with us, but at the same time learning a few things along the way.

Kate: [57:26] Yes. Before I forget, the name of that podcast was "This American Life." That's a popular one.

Kevin: [57:31] Yes, that's a very well-known one. Of course, some of these very well-known podcasts have huge production teams. I know even Jason Calacanis, he does "This Week In Startups," they live stream it, they do an audio, video, they've got a high ProFocus. I think he's got a team of three or four. He's got a lot of people working on it to get keep that production value, keep that regular, and keep the quality of the guests. Everything does add up with effort if you'd like to maintain quality.

[58:04] But, to do a regular half hour podcast it's not that difficult, but like with everything, it does take effort. You do need to commit and stick to it. That's definitely when you reap the rewards.

[58:16] Podcasts are a great reason to reach out to interesting people like David Heinemeier Hansson. I couldn't have emailed him and say "I'd like to just have a short chat with you." He'd be like "Thanks, but I'm a busy guy."

Kate: [58:29] Like "Thanks, but no thanks."

Kevin: [58:29] Yes, and fair enough, right? But, to say being on a podcast and people want to hear what you have to say, so it gives you a bit of an excuse to meet interesting people along the way.

[58:40] If you're in a niche and it doesn't matter what that niche is, if you make harps or you teach a type of dancing, there is someone out there that would like to learn more about the knowledge you have. Kick it off. Do a once every two week podcast and once a month podcast. Anyone I know that's got an interest in podcasting, they may get bitten by the bug, they enjoy it.

Kate: [59:03] Interesting. Back on a previous point you made about people listening to the radio like in multitasking, sort of feeling like they're a part of something and connected, is the new casts how they've got Apple Play and Android Order and Google Home.

Kevin: [59:24] That's a very good point.

Kate: [59:24] Really cool idea that you can pick what podcast essentially like a radio station and tailor to what you want to hear about.

Kevin: [59:34] Absolutely.

Kate: [59:34] You know, just aimlessly clicking through channels to find a song that you like or to presenters that don't annoy you.

Kevin: [59:41] I've been on some very long drives, 10 hour drives, and I've literally gone through a whole podcast series, one after another, after another, and it's fantastic. It's an audio book and it's...

[59:55] You know, radio, commercial radio, is under a lot of pressure because their life blood was people in their cars during the morning and during the evening. I still think there is a lot of value, breaking news and things like that and Hyperlocal where people like to be plugged into their local environments.

[60:14] Radio is never going to go away, but they're certainly going to have to fight a lot harder for the mind share of people because they up against all those fantastic contents around the world. In the States, of course, they've got Satellite Radio which in a way it's like cable TV but for radio.

Kate: [60:32] Do you have to pay for it?

Kevin: [60:34] You have to pay for it, it's subscription.

[60:36] There are hundreds of channels, very niche channels. There will be niche channels where they talk about medical issues. They've got doctors talking and you can call in and ask them questions 24 hours. They've got a show that's jazz 24 hours. They've got a show that plays Elvis 24 hours, and all these hyper-niched, like Howard Stern, for example is on Satellite Radio. I think Bob Dylan has a radio show on Satellite Radio.

[61:02] In the States they've got satellites, as well. We don't have satellites here. I don't know why. I would think if it's satellite, it wouldn't be such a big deal just to leverage of that, but there's obviously reasons why they don't, we don't have a small population here.

[61:16] There's a lot of content out there and plugging in podcasts into the cars is definitely...we're interest in cars these days one of the big reasons in the marketing for people buy new cars is all the new technology. I'm not talking about technology in the engine. I'm talking about the technology to access media and their phones and things like that.

Kate: [61:40] Yeah. Connectivity.

Kevin: [61:40] Connectivity. I saw there was an article today that Jaguar is the first car manufacturer to include payments inside their car, so that when you go to Shell service stations you don't have to...the car just talks to the pump.

[61:57] It uses Apple Pay or Android Pay and it just...You've got obviously your accounts hooked in somewhere there. You just go in, fill up your car, and drive away and it sort of pings. It's sort of I guess like Uber does.

[62:10] There's no reason why you should have to take out your wallet and go and pay. You just do what you need to do and it just pings it off your account.

Kate: [62:18] Not bad.

Kevin: [62:18] Everyone wins.

Kate: [62:20] Don't they currently have where you can have a selected amount or it's like a tap and go but at the pump?

Kevin: [62:25] I think some pumps do, yeah, but still this even takes it one-step...

Kate: [62:30] Step further.

Kevin: [62:31] further where it's just totally friction less. That's the way it's going where it's all the payments, they're all going to be absolutely friction less.

[62:38] Anyway, that's episode number 81. Please email us at podcast@itsamonkey.com. If you'd like to say hello, we'd love to hear from you.

[62:48] Listen to some of our previous podcasts at ItsaMonkey.com including a great show that we had the day with David Heinemeier Hansson, which is breaking all our listenership records by leaps and bounds. People loved hearing from him. We'll see if we can get him back on the show.

[63:04] We'll be back next week with episode number 82. Thanks for joining us.

Kate: [63:09] See you later.

[63:10] [music]