Kevin Garber: [00:01] This week on "It's A Monkey Podcast."

Zeryab Cheema: [00:03] There's simple mathematics behind it. When you are not taking a 25 to 30 percent commission from the driver, you can basically reduce fares by let's say another 10 or 15 percent against Uber or the rest of the competitors.

[00:14] So once you reduce fares, you're literally the cheapest option in the market without harming or without taking any earnings from the driver. The driver still makes more because you just split up that commission figure into two halves. It's cheaper, but the driver still doesn't miss out. They're making more than any other platform.

[00:30] [background music]

Kevin: [00:39] Good morning, good evening. Hello wherever you are in the world. It is Friday, the 28th of April. We are back. We took two weeks off. It was the Easter holiday in Sydney, Australia or in Australia, I should say. It's a probably a relatively big holiday, not from a religious perspective, but from the fact that we get Friday off and Monday off.

[01:02] Then a week later, there's another public holiday called Anzac Day. It ends up being a bit of a tricky time of year.

[01:09] We took two weeks off. I hope you enjoyed the repeat episodes of some of our previous podcasts in episode...The last two weeks. That's episode 89 and 90. Today we're episode 91 and we have a fantastic show coming up for you.

[01:26] I had a really interesting chat with Zeryab Cheema, and we're going to be playing that later on in the show. Zeryab is the CEO of a company called HOP. Now what makes it interesting is a few things. Hop is taking on Uber, and as you know, Uber is super well-funded and is doing very, very well.

[01:44] Zeryab's only 20 years old. I had a fascinating chat with him and I loved sitting in front of a 20-year-old and asking him his top tips for entrepreneurship, which was really fantastic.

[02:02] As usual, I have my co-host with me, who is the design lead at ManageFlitter and soon-to-be ManageSocial, Kate Frappell. Kate, thank you for joining us.

Kate Frappell: [02:11] No worries. Good to be back after the holidays.

Kevin: [02:15] As usual, we kick off the podcast talking about some tech stories. Of course, the last week or so, about a week ago, was the Facebook Developer Conference, F8, which has evolved into a two-day spectacle.

[02:28] I mean, it started many years ago as being one of these developer conferences that spoke about how developers can make use of the API, what they can do on Facebook, and things like that. There's still a little bit of that, that happens of how you can layer bits and pieces on top of it.

[02:44] It's become, essentially, a two-day sharing of a vision of Facebook, in a way, of what their vision for their own product, and in a way, even the future of tech, what their view of future of tech is.

Kate: [02:58] Yeah, definitely. Last year, they seem to be concentrating on VR. The major theme, I guess, is augmented reality, AR.

Kevin: [03:09] And we all know why that is though, right?

Kate: [03:12] Because they're building glasses.

Kevin: [03:14] Because they're taking on Snapchat, and Snapchat were the first to have those AR filters.

Kate: [03:22] Definitely, and their big announcement at this particular conference was that they're opening up their API to certain developers to add in Snapchat-like effects, and then the most interesting and fun ones will get implemented into Facebook's product, so not just Facebook, but also Instagram, Messenger, and WhatsApp.

Kevin: [03:44] I also saw they bought Oculus Rift, which is a VR product, and they announced that you'll be able to...They're releasing a Beta version of a product, where you'll be able to hang out in an environment with some of your Facebook friends.

[04:00] Sounds a little bit like Second Life. You remember that app, Second Life, which was a virtual world that did very, very well for a long time? But it obviously didn't have the glasses aspect side of it, so they announced that as well.

[04:16] Whole heap of announcements if it's actually worth going and looking at the whole list of announcements that they made. They also spoke about some brain user interfaces that they're experimenting with, right?

Kate: [04:31] Yeah, so basically Facebook are envisioning a future where everyone is wearing these AR glasses. Like everyone has a mobile phone, now everyone's going to have these glasses. The problem that they're going to face is that once you got these glasses on, you don't want to be actioning things and programming it with a remote.

[04:53] You don't want to be able to touch the glasses either, because you can leave fingerprints, and marks, and things like that, so they're working on something similar to Elon Musk's Neuralink, where your thoughts and eye movements control the glasses.

Kevin: [05:10] Basically, you'll be able to maybe train it and think...Well if you think of accessing the admin panel and you were trained that every time you think that, it will pop up an admin panel in front of you.

[05:23] This technology has been around for a little while. In the 2000s, they had gaming interfaces where you could train something you put on your brain. If you say, "Move left, move left," and it would train that every time you move left, it would move the cursor left.

[05:37] This technology, it's been babbling around, but it hasn't really hits its sweet spot. That makes a lot of sense. I think in many ways, Facebook is envisaging a post mobile phone world.

Kate: [05:51] Yes. These glasses will be the next logical replacement for a phone.

Kevin: [05:57] We'll all just be working around with AR glasses on. We'll be able to switch things on, switch things off, instead of typing or saying, "What is the GDP of Australia?" You just think, "What is the GDP of Australia," and...

Kate: [06:11] Appears in front of you.

Kevin: [06:12] Appears in front of you. You know what's going to get really interesting, Kate, is hacking. [laughs] It's going to be really interesting because you hack into someone's device, and you can see what they're thinking, they got their brain waves. We're heading towards a Minority Report future, that movie with Tom Cruise, where...

Kate: [06:32] I can't say I've seen it.

Kevin: [06:33] It's worth seeing. It's worth seeing, actually. It's a little bit of a mind bender, a little bit trippy. Maybe it looks a little bit dated now, but I think, if I remember correctly, they would arrest people for pre-crimes.

Kate: [06:43] For thinking of a crime.

Kevin: [06:45] If people were thinking of and will be going to do a crime, they would know it, and they would arrest them before they...

Kate: [06:49] Wow!

[06:49] [laughter]

Kevin: [06:52] It brings up a lot of food for thought in any case. It's got to Tom Cruise in there which...He's a good actor.

Kate: [06:59] I think in terms of just thinking about the capabilities, Mark Zuckerberg went through the three categories of ARs. They were information, digital objects, and enhancements. Information, for example, could be while you're driving down the road, if you want directions, the directions appear overlaid on the image of the road, in front of what you're seeing.

Kevin: [07:24] And can help you drive safer, right?

Kate: [07:27] Yeah.

Kevin: [07:27] I just did a long drive in a part of Australia. Where that would really be useful would be especially at night. We've spoken about all the self-driving stuff in the past, but what would be really interesting is if the glasses had night vision. I don't necessarily have night vision, but it would alert me to animals.

[07:46] Animals on the roads in Australia are a big problem, especially at night. It would just alert you that there's...If it would increase your field of vision and alert you, it could be incredibly...Even during the day, because you're looking ahead. If there's something going on in the side, a lot of the time you miss it until it's in front of you.

Kate: [08:07] That's true.

Kevin: [08:08] That definitely can help with that. What else did he say? The information that's almost like contextual information.

Kate: [08:17] Yep. That one was the first category. Second was digital objects. Let's say you could leave a virtual post a note on your fridge that other people in your household could see and you could take it down, but it doesn't actually exist. You only see it if you got the glasses on.

Kevin: [08:36] That could be a lot of fun as well.

Kate: [08:38] Definitely. There's a whole avenue where people can be doing art projects and graffiti on all sorts of surfaces and reusing that space, because it's not actually real.

Kevin: [08:50] Interesting.

Kate: [08:51] The third one is enhancement, which I think is pretty interesting. An example for that one would be if you went to a restaurant and you opened up the menu, on top of the menu would be reviews, recommendations from your friends on what they ate, what was bad, stuff like that. You're enhancing the experience that you're actually having.

Kevin: [09:16] I think this technology is going to be fantastic. It's like we struggle to live in a world without mobiles these days. You know I went camping in a place that's got no mobile, no cell phone signal.

[09:31] What was interesting is people loved the aspect that people weren't wandering around, distracted, staring at their phones, but they would get frustrated when they would be having a discussion even around...I don't know.

[09:44] Say you see an animal, an Australian animal, and suddenly you have all sorts of thoughts about this animal, and you want to find out more. What is this animal? Is this dangerous? Suddenly people are like, "We can't Google this. We can't go down their path."

Kate: [09:59] There's not enough information.

Kevin: [10:00] There's not enough information. I think this whole AR world is going to take that even to the next level, where we can calibrate how much ambient information we get send to us.

[10:13] For instance, you could walk through New York. You can calibrate it to get notified of interesting, historical places just as you're walking. You could calibrate it to ignore places of, maybe, religion or something.

Kate: [10:28] Yeah, if you didn't want to know about it.

Kevin: [10:32] If you didn't want to know about it. Of course, the privacy issues and the security issues are massive. I've spoken before in the podcast what I see as the role of government in society. Again, I see as one of the roles of government is to stimulate debate around these ethical issues and discussions, and even standards and protocols.

[10:50] They're going to bring up very, very big issues that we're not even talking about yet, putting in procedures and policies. We've spoken as a theme whether it's Internet of Things, or whether it's virtual reality, or this tech, or self-driving cars even. We need ethics committees to have deep discussions or robots with guns.

[11:19] I saw another video yesterday, I think from Russia, with a robot with a gun. [laughs] Why are we talking about this, right? A robot with a gun is a lot more dangerous than a human with a gun because you can't really take it down, right?

Kate: [11:34] Yeah.

Kevin: [11:35] It's very, very difficult to take it down.

Kate: [11:37] At this stage, though, I'm assuming anyway, that the robot can't action anything unless it's told to. As a human, you can't predict what they're going to do. Interesting debate.

Kevin: [11:53] Interesting debate, which we should be having more. Was there anything else out of F8? If you're interested, just google Facebook F8 conference. Lot of interesting bits and pieces. Facebook's share price, liked what he had to say. It's heading towards a $150, the share price.

Kevin: [12:11] Right. They list it at...I think it was...I can't remember exactly. $22, $23. They're now nearly $150. They're doing a lot right. For all of their criticism, they're doing a lot right.

Kate: [12:25] Yeah, definitely. I think the biggest takeaway from there was the Camera Effects Platform, which we spoke about initially, where they're letting developers come in and go crazy with AR.

Kevin: [12:37] It's going to be fun. They are, of course, piggy-backing off...Snapchat were the first one to develop those. People love them. They still love them. That's Facebook F8. What else is happening? There's the reality of...

Kate: [12:53] Flying cars.

Kevin: [12:54] Flying cars to a degree. There's a German company that's developed something that's called...

Kate: [13:03] They're called Lilium Aviation. They've done their first test flight of an all-electric, two-seater...I guess it's a jet, but it sort of functions similar to a helicopter, where it vertical takeoff and propels forward. It's supposedly smaller, cheaper, faster than any of the planes we have now. It's closer to a car.

Kevin: [13:31] It's self-driving, although they said the first versions will have pilots on them.

Kate: [13:37] Yeah. Their test run was remote. They didn't put any humans in there when they...

Kevin: [13:43] A remote, so not quite self-driving or self-flying, I should say.

Kate: [13:48] Yeah. They're going to put humans in. They've got a few safety precautions, some parachutes. [laughs]

Kevin: [13:56] I loved that where it said, "Safety's a major emphasis. While the startup is working toward having its aircraft pilot autonomously, it intends to use human pilots in the meantime.

[14:09] There will be parachutes on board and something called the Flight Envelope Protection System, which prevents the pilots from performing maneuvers or flying the aircraft beyond safe flight parameters," read, a Top Gun pilot that suddenly tries to do a loop-de-loop with you inside.

[14:26] They won't be able to do that. They say the plan is to eventually build a five-passenger version of the jet.

Kate: [14:32] Yeah. They're currently using a battery similar to Tesla.

Kevin: [14:37] Right, but it's confusing. It's not actually a car. You can't actually use it as a car, and then it turns into a plane, which is what I want.

[14:45] [laughter]

Kate: [14:47] It's like "The Jetsons."

[14:49] [laughter]

Kevin: [14:49] Basically. You, at times, you want a car. At times, you want a plane. They still would have to, in a way...

Kate: [15:00] Going to put helipads on top of every building.

Kevin: [15:02] Yeah. You would still have to get to the helipad.

Kate: [15:05] Yeah.

Kevin: [15:05] Right, if you can. Of course, Uber's working on its own version. Of course, the vision for companies like Uber is to have self-driving everything, that you'll be able to...Now, you can choose your black car, your normal, your taxi, or sharing. One of the options will be the self-driving planes.

[15:28] I think it's still a little way to go until this is tried and tested, and people have the confidence to get in. I was in a plane at the beginning of last year, about a 15-seater, in Northern New South Wales, near Byron Bay on the way back to Sydney.

[15:45] This plane had some engine trouble. We had to immediately go back to the airport. It's just psychological, but being in a small plane, boy, do you feel a lot more vulnerable than being in a big plane.

Kate: [16:00] I think the pressurization in there, what do they call it? Equalizing?

Kevin: [16:05] No, you're right, the pressure.

Kate: [16:00] It's definitely not the same. Small planes actually stuff up my ears a lot worse than larger planes.

Kevin: [16:13] Right. They don't say what altitude they would fly. It says here, "Maximum cruising speed of 183 or 300 kilometers per hour and a range of 300 kilometers," which is quite decent, I guess, for small..."The craft is powered by 36 separate jet engines mounted on 10 meter-long wings." It doesn't say how high it flies. but it's definitely the way of the future.

[16:40] I actually emailed them a while ago, trying to get an interview. They said they're not doing much press at the moment. We'll see if we can snag an interview with them at some stage. I would imagine it's a little way away and may become like a novelty-ish first. Like a lot of technologies, start off as a novelty, and then they come in to the mainstream.

[17:00] We'll put a link on the show notes. There's a video there. It's quite exciting. Would you get in one of these?

Kate: [17:08] Not straight away. [laughs] Well actually, maybe if there was a pilot, yes. I'd be more apprehensive if it was self-driving. Pilot? Yeah, good chance I would give it a go, particularly these ones too. The interesting thing is they're trying to make it super accessible to everyone, so it's not just something for the rich.

[17:28] They quoted a taxi. For example, from midtown Manhattan to JFK airport is now 55 minutes and about $55.They could convert that to a six-minute ride in one of these planes. Oh no, five-minute flight, sorry, and a six-dollar fare.

Kevin: [17:46] Six dollars.

Kate: [17:47] Six dollars.

Kevin: [17:49] Well, that'll be pretty amazing but...

Kate: [17:50] That will be enough to make me try it. [laughs]

Kevin: [17:51] You know what, though? The commercial aircraft industry has been going for what -- I don't know -- 80 years, 100 years, somewhere around there. It's taken this long to get the safety right, and it's incredibly safe now. It's remarkably safe. It's probably the safest way to travel in the commercial jets. I'm not talking about the private flying.

[18:14] For that to get to that level of safety, because unfortunately that can only happen after crashes. With commercial jets, after each crash they investigate, and make recommendations, and make changes nearly after each crash.

Kate: [18:30] That doesn't happen very often.

Kevin: [18:32] Now, that they are so safe, but for these little ones, there'll be birds, and again hacking, if it's all autonomous and someone hacks into...

Kate: [18:46] Someone mentioned infrastructure costs of putting those helipads and ability to fly around the city. I was thinking about this earlier whether there's even a use case to have these flying, personal jets and self driving cars. If you can put infrastructure into self driving cars, people aren't driving, traffic moves quicker, do you need the plane? Maybe not.

Kevin: [19:12] Maybe not. It's not for those, and maybe trains and cars are a better solution for those short distances.

Kate: [19:18] Definitely, I reckon.

Kevin: [19:20] Safer, more predictable, it's a two-dimensional issue as opposed to...With planes, you got three dimensions, because there's height as well. Anyway, it's interesting when it all comes to mix, and who knows? Maybe in five years, we'll all be zipping around without parachutes on our back, right? It comes with the free parachute. [laughs]

Kate: [19:41] I would like to see a self-driving car that also turns into a plane like The Jetsons'. That would be cool.

Kevin: [19:49] Yes. Certainly. And a boat. And it's got fast WiFi inside.

Kate: [19:55] Yeah. We have to though.

Kevin: [19:58] It's got a little vegetable patch inside, where you can...

Kate: [20:01] A vegetable patch? [laughs]

Kevin: [20:01] Yeah, that you can whip up a fresh salad from little food inside there.

Kate: [20:10] By then, we'll be having...

Kevin: [20:11] Pills.

Kate: [20:12] Pills. You could just ask the plane for the pill. It will present you with the pill, then you'll think you ate a salad. You can then put augmented reality glasses on and look at the salad while eating the pill.

[20:24] [laughter]

Kevin: [20:24] Now you are on to something. [laughs] You can see that app. A salad app, right? You take the pill...Maybe there's fake salad that you can just rewash but it gives you that...Maybe it's impregnated with nutrients, so it will feel like you're eating salad, but it will give you that texture.

Kate: [20:42] Can you imagine the substance that you could just chew forever?

Kevin: [20:49] Chewing gum?

Kate: [20:50] No, not the same.

Kevin: [20:51] Not the same?

Kate: [20:52] No Permanent lettuce.

Kevin: [20:55] Permanent lettuce. OK. I'm going to reflect on that.

[20:59] [laughter]

Kevin: [20:59] You're listening to the episode 91 of It's a Monkey Podcast. We chat about everything related to technology, startups, entrepreneurship. We are going to take a short break and after break, we are going play my chat that I had with Zeryab Cheema, who is the CEO of HOP, which is an Uber alternative.

[21:17] Zeryab is only 20 years old and I had a fantastically interesting chat with him. Stay with us.

[21:24] [commercial break]

Kevin: [21:25] We're back and It's a Monkey Podcast. We chat about everything relating to technology, startups, software industry, entrepreneurship. One of the companies that we covered quite a lot and have done for a couple of years, even more than that, is Uber. Uber is an interesting company. It's been disrupting transports, causing havoc in different countries.

[22:15] There's been protests. The taxi industry has been typically an established industry for quite some time. Uber's been ruffling its feathers.

[22:26] Interestingly, here locally, where we based, in Sydney, Australia, there's another startup called HOP that is tackling the transport side of things and the taxi service on demand locally through a bit of another angle.

[22:43] I'm happy to say right in the studio, which is exciting, because we don't have all that many in-studio guests -- most of our guests are via Skype -- is Zeryab Cheema, the CEO of HOP.

[22:52] We are going to chat about his startup. Thank you very much for joining us today.

Zeryab: [22:57] It's a pleasure.

Kevin: [22:59] I'm sure HOP and Uber get used in a same way. It's one of the first questions people ask you. Uber is got an incredible brand name. Everyone's heard of Uber. Give us a big picture view, or synopsis, of what does HOP do. Particularly it would probably help people if it's in relation to how it's similar or different to Uber.

Zeryab: [23:21] Absolutely. I think around the world, we have competitors who are competing in this ride-sharing space, as we call it. Around the world, there's multiple players. There's Didi in China. There's Lyft in the US, there's Ola in India, GrabTaxi in Southeast Asia, so the list goes on. In the Australian market, we lack that competition.

[23:39] Where HOP plays in is it partnered up with a rental car company called Hertz, at the moment. Hertz has 20,000 plus rental vehicles on the road. What we intend to do is to use those unrealized assets in a different way. Basically, anyone over the age of 25 can rent a car through us, get on the road, and start driving as they would on any other ride-sharing platform.

[24:01] There's a few key differences. The first thing is for a driver, it's 100 percent of all fares, so we take no commission. Unlike other ride-sharing platforms which take 20 to 25 percent commission, we don't take that.

Kevin: [24:11] But they do have to pay for the car, right?

Zeryab: [24:13] They do. The rental cost is on their end, on the driver's side as well as the fuel cost, let's jut say. Those two costs are attributed to the driver's side.

Kevin: [24:21] They have to pay for the car and the fuel, but anything they make on the rides is theirs.

Zeryab: [24:26] Absolutely.

Kevin: [24:27] 100 percent.

Zeryab: [24:28] 100 percent theirs. That's a massive plus point for drivers. I guess the question a new driver would ask is that, "OK, I'm already driving with, let's say Uber, or the other platforms. Why would I switch to you, guys?" You know, that sense of security.

[24:39] What we do initially is we guarantee $300 per day to be with our system. Basically, if you take one ride or 10 trips, we'll still give you $300 as a minimum guarantee per day, so you feel that sense of security to join a new platform, a new system, as a driver.

Kevin: [24:56] Making that type of backing of $300 per day, I mean A, you need to have confidence that there's going to be demand for your service. B, you're going to have capital requirements to fill in the gaps when you're going to have to make up for those quiet days.

[25:11] Have you raised funds or you bootstrapped? Go a bit about your back story. How you came up with this idea and what's been your part so far?

Zeryab: [25:22] I think it was about a year ago when we were in discussions of this pay per ride idea. It was on paper. What would make the difference? It would be something that's good for the drivers, something that provides choice for consumers as well though.

[25:30] It has to be cheaper, high efficiency of the solution itself, better cars, and I guess a lot more trained drivers on our end as well. That was a model itself, very simple. Keep the costs low, but give high benefits to drivers.

Kevin: [25:46] A year ago, you thought of this idea. The company didn't exist. It was nothing

Zeryab: [25:52] No.

Kevin: [25:52] Take us from there.

Zeryab: [25:54] From there, I got in touch with Hertz and...

Kevin: [25:56] Did you just out of the blue called, emailed them to say hi, because for people listening, they might not realize...How old are you?

Zeryab: [26:07] 20.

Kevin: [26:07] [laughs] I remember being 20. It might have gotten a bit better, but people don't take you seriously, right?

Zeryab: [26:15] Absolutely. That's an interesting point. This being my second project, my first project was taxi 24/7 which obviously ran in the black cab sector in London. That was at 15.

Kevin: [26:21] You are a veteran!

Zeryab: [26:23] I'm not a veteran, but I have a bit of knowhow around the market. But I think the number one thing is to bring credibility, you have to step into the game without that fee element being present. When I did approach Hertz, it was through a very simple email to one of their directors in Australia, and they were quite happy to proceed with it.

[26:47] It does take time, but as long as you show them that you are serious, you're not just having a crack at it, you're actually full-on serious about getting into the market, that's what gets them excited.

Kevin: [26:57] Fantastic. So you had this idea. You emailed Hertz. Tell us, are you guys bootstrapped? Have you raised money? What's that side of things happening?

Zeryab: [27:08] A few discussions later, we managed to engage some people I had from the previous projects. Andrew Morello, the winner of "The Apprentice Australia," is also a friend and co-founder, he joined. Then we have Stuart Cook, who's the former CEO of Zambrero , the global CEO of that.

[27:25] They both joined and I had a lot more credibility, I guess, and the backing, to rise capital. We raised for a first round of capital...

Kevin: [27:31] You had some angel backing? You had some angel funding?

Zeryab: [27:35] They are all friends, board members that joined.

Kevin: [27:37] Advisers, colleagues?

Zeryab: [27:38] Advisers, absolutely. Once they joined, that does give the whole solution credibility. It validates the model. Then, you have to raise capital. We raised our first round of capital in November last year. We raised our valuation of 1.5 million, pretty money. That was good, that was successful and...

Kevin: [27:54] Are you comfortable to saying how much you raised, or not?

Zeryab: [27:57] We raised a few hundred thousand dollars. From there, it was all about now proving the model itself, being on a small scale. Let's say, 5 to 10 cars on road, let's prove this model does work, it can work.

[28:07] We did that quite well in a last few months and now we are in talks for our second round of funding, which would be at a much higher valuation. Raising a few million dollars in this case. That should go through, hopefully, quite soon.

Kevin: [28:20] Is that from local backers or international?

Zeryab: [28:24] Yes, local, high-net-worth individuals. We don't approach venture capitalists at the moment. It's with high-net-worth individuals who are within our network circles, but locally based.

Kevin: [28:36] Give us a snapshot of perhaps this last week. How many rides took place? How many drivers on the roads? Are you only in Sydney at this stage?

Zeryab: [28:43] Absolutely. In Sydney, we are only concentrated in Eastern suburbs, so very concentrated at the moment. I guess some data for you guys to look at that is we had 400 plus signups from drivers to register with our system.

[28:50] The drivers that are on the road at any given time is between 6 to 12 drivers per night, depending on what night it is. I think that we've completed a few thousand trips in the last few months. That's during our pilot phase since 14th of November to now. It's been used quite well.

Kevin: [29:12] From a passenger's perspective, is the price comparative to the taxis and Uber? How does it rate?

Zeryab: [29:21] We pitch it as a cheapest solution on the market. There's simple mathematics behind it. We are not taking 25 to 30 percent commission from the driver. You can basically reduce fares by, let's say another 10 or 15 percent against Uber or the rest of the competitors.

[29:36] Once you reduce those fares, you're literally the cheapest option on the market without harming or without taking away any earnings from the driver. The driver still makes more because you just split up that commission figure into two halves. It's cheaper, but the drivers still doesn't miss out. They're still making more than on any other platform.

Kevin: [29:54] Big part of Uber's success has been that they've developed a fantastic app. It's very easy to make a simple app. It's very complicated to make a brilliant app, particularly that scales. Who's working on your tech? What's your plan to scale that tech up?

Zeryab: [30:16] I think that's a very valid point. Around the world, we're looking at these competitors that have very strong tech teams that are competing against Uber effectively. In our case, we use a company called Altoros, who are the same engineers behind companies like Toyota, the biggest manufacturers. They develop that self-driving software, so they are really into that tech.

[30:34] They develop everything from software to hardware. Altoros is one of world's biggest engineering firms. We had a nice, close relationship with them for the last few years. I use the same engineers from that which...We've now in-housed a lot of those guys to add to our team.

Kevin: [30:47] Your product, it's available on Android, Apple, I assume?

Zeryab: [30:51] We have the iOS version out there on the market, but with the Android version it's being piloted at the moment, so it's still going through its bug phase, so there's going to be issues obviously. Just got to iron out the kinks.

Kevin: [31:01] Terrific. I'm an Android user. I live in the eastern suburbs. I'd love to give it a go.

Zeryab: [31:06] Yeah, but here's the brilliant part about it. You don't just need the app to get a ride, so you can actually get a ride without the app. And that's been the disruptive side to it and that's intentionally being done. For example, you're out at Coogee Pavilion on a Friday night, this evening, and you see one of our cars present there with the Hop flags on either side.

[31:23] That's how it's visible, it has the word Hop on it. You can approach one of our promo staff who are there, around five to six cars. There'll be one promo staff standing there advertising a solution. Approach him and say, "I want to get a ride." He'll just ask for your name, your pick up and drop off location, or contact number, and off you go.

[31:37] That is literally, or legally, a booking. Off you go, grab a ride, and that's it. You don't even need to download the app itself.

Kevin: [31:44] Because I believe the new law is that taxis have a monopoly on...

Zeryab: [31:50] Hailing.

Kevin: [31:50] Hailing and so other services you can't hail them. That sounds like you're sort of hailing them, right?

Zeryab: [31:58] Looking at the regulations, there's a grey area there. With regulation, if we look at two years ago when this new regulation came into effect, it was based around the Uber model. Effectively, that's what it was. It was based around how do we regulate a company like Uber? But nothing beyond that.

[32:12] The few points that they did miss out on were things like...A booking itself is literally what I've just said -- the first name, pick up and drop off location, and contact number. As long as that's provided before getting into the vehicle, that is, in itself, a booking.

[32:27] As long the driver's not the one touting or asking the customer to get into the vehicle, it's the customer approaching the vehicle itself and provides that information before entering the vehicle itself, then that on its own is a booking.

Kevin: [32:38] Interesting. And you're at Uni?

Zeryab: [32:40] Yeah, I am.

Kevin: [32:41] What are you studying?

Zeryab: [32:42] Economics, double major, so Economics and Accounting.

Kevin: [32:46] You still got time to have a life?

[32:49] [laughter]

Zeryab: [32:49] Yes, I think at university it's quite interesting. As soon as I got into this project I started to get into the entrepreneurship side of University, as well. First year, I started to speak about what entrepreneurship was from my story, the element of that.

[33:03] Then, I started to back the Sydney Business School competition called Sydney Genesis to fuel that movement at university, so we can actually have more entrepreneurs, younger entrepreneurs taking on those bigger companies without of having that sort of fear element present.

Kevin: [33:16] Have you ever been tempted to drop out of Uni? I know there's a mythology around so many of the entrepreneurs, whether it's Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates, or Mark Zuckerberg, that they sort of start Uni and then they almost get frustrated with the pace and the rigidity of it, and they're such free spirits and they leave it. You're sticking with it. What is your attitude to being to that?

Zeryab: [33:42] This was a three-year degree. In the first two years, I was in full time, which is effectively not a lot of days. It was just three days at Uni, with a few hours spent. This year, I've switched to part time, so as much as I try to stick in there, I think it's just as about attention span. As soon as I get sick of it, I might just move away.

[34:00] At this stage, there's a lot around the education. There is that stigma. I think it is true though, that it does lag behind. It is lagging behind effectively where entrepreneurs need a different education, that's where universities fail.

Kevin: [34:15] I think the best way that entrepreneurship is by doing it, right?

Zeryab: [34:19] Doing it right, absolutely.

Kevin: [34:21] You still live in London?

Zeryab: [34:22] Ah, no, I still live in Sydney. I fly in and out of London. My previous project was based out of London.

Kevin: [34:31] Right, and you did that while you were still in high school?

Zeryab: [34:33] I was in high school. We launched it in Sydney to test it in around in Sydney, but it wasn't the right market fit, so at that time you're going through a bit of change within taxi industry anyway. London was a good fit because, I guess 20,000 plus black cabs didn't take card payments. Cash only. That behavior meant we could disrupt it a lot easier, so we just stepped into that market instead.

Kevin: [34:54] And did you create a UK entity or...

Zeryab: [34:57] Yeah, so it was a separate UK entity that we set up and we just launched the product in that market.

Kevin: [35:02] You mentioned that product's still going?

Zeryab: [35:03] It is, yeah.

Kevin: [35:05] Is that your product still?

Zeryab: [35:07] Yeah. It's quite self-sufficient. Basically it's a payment solution that pays up with the app itself. A small payment, Bluetooth-enabled device that you can tap-and-go your card against. That, in the black cab market, is quite unique, while in Australia it's quite normal to be paying with contactless or credit cards. It's very normal here.

[35:24] There, it's very different because for the last, what 50, 60 years, it's only been cash in hand. That's what the black cab market has been. Now it's taking a turn. We introduced a system there and that's quite, you know, it's operating on its own with low involvement from our end, but it operates and I don't take any direct involvement on that part. My focus is in the Australian market right here.

Kevin: [35:48] Now Zeryab, I'm sure I've got people listening to this podcast that might be double or triple your age that are probably feeling a bit sheepish while they listen to this podcast while they're exercising, driving their car, because you're 20 and you're just getting on with it, and you're making stuff happen.

[36:03] What would your tips be to someone of any age that wants to...You know, so many people say to me, "I want to have my own business. I want to be an entrepreneur. I wish I could do what you're doing."

[36:16] I mean, you're doing it at a very young age. What would you say or something...Every entrepreneur feels resistance. Some push through in different ways. Give us some of your thoughts around actually just getting out there and doing it.

Zeryab: [36:33] I think there's three Ps to really stick by. Passion, persistence, and pivot. Passion, you should do what you love so any project you do it should be heart and soul into it. Persistence, just keep going with it. There'll obviously be a lot of roadblocks on the road with things like funding. That's a massive issue for most entrepreneurs.

[36:50] The third is pivot. If it's not working you have to pivot the project. For example, if I launch an app in the Australian market and it just wasn't fitting into the market, rather than just giving up on it, I can tweak it a bit and just make it fit, make it work.

[37:03] I think that sort of attitude, you normally do win out at the end, but it's always a long-term play anyways. I think it's the way you think about things that matters rather than what you're doing right now, currently.

Kevin: [37:14] Were you born in Australia?

Zeryab: [37:15] I was, yeah.

Kevin: [37:20] You're still pretty young, so I guess you know your context, but do you feel that Australian entrepreneurship...You've obviously dabbled in the UK markets. How do you feel that the spirit of entrepreneurship is evolving in Australia compared to some of the other markets?

Zeryab: [37:39] I think, when you look at the U.S., it's very venture capital heavy so we look at the U.S. as if that's where all the money is, and that was true for some time. Looking at the Australian market it lacked a lot of venture capitalists who were looking to give it a shot, give new startups a shot.

[37:54] What we've seen recently in the last five or so years is that venture capitalists in Australia are backing startups. Still I guess where that division or where that barrier is, is that they're backing startups that have some good run on the board. That's what, I guess, is the difference is here.

[38:11] We're not backing those big ideas that are risk-taking and probably have a low chance of winning, but if they do win, they'll probably win out big time. We're not backing those startups and that's where we lack.

[38:23] The venture capitalists in Australia are really still moving towards where they should be, so that's where the U.S. is ahead of us, but we probably would get there in the next 5 to 10 years.

Kevin: [38:32] Are you a coder?

Zeryab: [38:33] No, although I do know everything that's [indecipherable] , I would probably set aside the business side, rather than the tech side.

Kevin: [38:40] That's, I think, also a useful point for people listening to the podcast, because the Silicon Valley model is coders building their own product and getting some funding. You don't have to be a coder to build a tech business.

[38:52] You do have to understand the lay of the land and understand what the difference between iOS and Android, and web, and native and non-native, and PHP versus Node, and skill yourself up in the lingo and the lay of the land. You don't actually have to be an engineer yourself, right?

Zeryab: [39:08] That's right. That's exactly right. I think understanding something is quite important. You should understand your product in and out, back to front, but being a complete expert at building that product itself from a tech element isn't necessary at this stage.

Kevin: [39:22] What has been your greatest challenge so far as an entrepreneur? Personal or business?

Zeryab: [39:28] I think it would be finding the right people around you. I think surrounding yourself with the right people is probably the biggest challenge you can face. If you look back at the last five years that I've been in entrepreneurship, I think it takes time to develop those relationships, to develop that trust, but then there's two ways of going about it.

[39:45] The first is being resistant, being a bit fearful and saying maybe you shouldn't trust everyone that you come across. But the second thing that normally does work for me, which is the second option, which is to trust anyone, give them a chance, and see if that works out or not. It probably won't work out but if it does, it's a long-term thing.

[40:03] When I met Andrew Morello who's, as I said, a nice part of this project -- he's always on board completely, he's a board member -- I met him a few years back and it was through casual discussions that took, I guess the last two or three years, before we were in business together, before we were trusting each other. It takes time, but surrounding yourself with the right people goes a long way.

Kevin: [40:25] Who's been the biggest influence on you in your journey, whether it's people that you read about or personally in your life? You mentioned some of your advisors, which...They sound like they've been a great influence and help. Any other people known or unknown?

Zeryab: [40:43] I think from a higher level perspective...If we're looking at past entrepreneurs, for example, I think people like Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon. I think the reason why he's different is because he didn't have a co-founder alongside him, so he was a sole founder and he built a company up against all odds.

[41:00] Companies like that are interesting, but other companies, or entrepreneurs I find interesting is guys like Steve Jobs. The reason why is back then, you had...The way I see this market is that you had IBM, effectively the Uber of today.

[41:16] IBM was this big, massive company and Apple still talked them out as an innovative company. IBM was a disruptor at that age, but Steve Jobs still gave it a chance, and then he took Apple from being a normal company into one of the biggest innovative companies in the world.

Kevin: [41:32] Do you meet with other young entrepreneurs? I mean, I started my business pretty young as well and I remember at the time I was in my 20s, not as young as you, but I remember one of my frustrations that I had was meeting people that were also young.

[41:45] I'd go to networking events, at that time in Australia actually, startups weren't a thing. It was about small business, SMEs. Do you meet many other young entrepreneurs? I mean real entrepreneurs, and I'm not knocking people that want to perhaps try to start a business, but actually someone that's in there with their boots on...

Zeryab: [42:03] Been there done that.

Kevin: [42:04] Forming partnerships, making a bit of revenue. Anyone else amongst your peers that are doing similar things?

Zeryab: [42:10] Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the most important thing, learning of those people directly. There was this movement that ICE pitched up, which was called The Entourage, and that's where a lot of the entrepreneurs gathered around as well.

[42:22] I had a chance of meeting those entrepreneurs and just following on from that on a regular basis, through these networks that I have, I get introduced to other people who I'll just sit down and have a chat to. These entrepreneurs who've built successful businesses in the past and have now retired, they could be of all different ages. That's what happens.

[42:39] Different individuals that I come across who are quite inspiring to listen because...Essentially, everyone does go through the same thing, but we just don't realize it, and we all think our stories are different but they're all quite similar at the end.

Kevin: [42:50] Absolutely, I think that's very, very true. We all think our stories are different, but they're all very similar. How does your family feel about your diving in so young into entrepreneurship? There's the stereotype of families wanting their children to be doctors, and lawyers, and accountants and architects, allegedly "safe."

[43:15] What's their view on you getting into the, taking on Uber alone? Uber's powerful! Travis Kalanick, he was on Donald Trump's board of advisors, I think he resigned...

Zeryab: [43:28] He did.

Kevin: [43:29] But you know they're a strong incumbent, right?

Zeryab: [43:33] The truth of the matter is that you've had a lot of companies in the past. I think every 10, 15 years, we come across this wonder player. We think that this is it. I think looking back, we might say that eBay was a tech giant, untakeable, but companies like Alibaba disrupted that field quite easily and quite nicely. It does take time effectively.

[43:52] I think that's where the exciting part is in the challenge. I know Andrew Morello works for a company called Yellow Brick Road, so the host of that...

Kevin: [44:00] It's the mortgage...

Zeryab: [44:01] Yeah, it's the wealth management. Mark Bouris is the one that heads up that, which was The Apprentice host. One thing that I really like about him, and I've met him a few times, I like the fact that he says that he actually finds, when companies are going down, it's the toughest time for any CEO, but he actually enjoyed that the most.

[44:21] He loves the whole element of dealing with the fear itself. Taking on banks, for example, is the hardest thing but he's doing that quite well. Looking at this market it's probably the hottest market in the world, the ride sharing market with Uber, this big giant in the market.

[44:34] But effectively, you have companies like Lyft who've proven that there is a chance to take them on. Didi took them out in China completely. I think what we miss is that these drivers...You're betting a 69 billion dollar bet, basically, on driver behavior, on consumer choice. Drivers can switch from one platform to the other platform quite easily.

[44:55] When we had that Trump saga happening, we had 100 thousand plus users each day leave the Uber platform. It's very interesting to see that once you provide drivers with a choice, what happens then?

[45:05] If you can provide a sense of security...Let's say tomorrow we were capital loaded and we said to a thousand drivers that we could switch you from Uber or taxis to our Hop platform and we would guarantee some sort of revenue. I am quite certain they would switch over. It takes capital, it takes a lot of work, but it can happen quite easily. That's what's interesting here.

Kevin: [45:26] Well, you guys have been lucky so far as well. Not to take away from all your good work, is that Lyft isn't in Australia yet right?

Zeryab: [45:32] Yeah, that's a very interesting point. I think a lot of people predicting that Lyft would enter a market like Australia, but what we know is that Lyft goes into an acquisition model.

[45:43] There's a few similarities that people sometimes miss out on. This partnership with, or this sort of arrangement, with Hertz isn't globally unique. In San Francisco, Lyft and Hertz have a similar arrangement.

Kevin: [45:54] Right, I didn't realize that.

Zeryab: [45:55] And Lyft uses, their underwriters for insurance, Marsh. Our underwriters for insurance are Marsh, as well. We use the same payment company, Stripe. They use Stripe, as well. We've intentionally lined this up because Lyft goes into an acquisition strategy in each market. It's not about competing with Uber. That's where sometimes it gets mistaken. It's really...

Kevin: [46:13] Finding your own path.

Zeryab: [46:14] Providing a choice but this isn't a long-term play, where we're going to be a 20-, 30-billion-dollar company. It's more about build it to a point where you can actually then form an alliance or do an acquisition deal with guys like Lyft. That's what Lyft is doing. In every market, they have an alliance going on, with Didi, with Ola, with GrabTaxi, with Get.

[46:33] They're actually forming a bit of an alliance and that is a very powerful thing. In the Australian market there is no one doing that with them, so it's a very empty market and that's where the opportunity came up.

Kevin: [46:42] Have you been in, has anyone from Uber or Lyft ever been in touch with you?

Zeryab: [46:45] We are in touch with the guys at Lyft. With the guys at Uber, it's just a bit of banter, but we've had a bit of fun seeing each other. Other than that, there's no sort of discussions happening.

Kevin: [46:55] So you never answered directly the question about your family's attitude to not becoming a doctor, right? [laughs] .

Zeryab: [47:00] No, no, yes. I think that might be one of those things that sort of you might think of, but my parents would never say...They wouldn't force me towards one direction.

Kevin: [47:11] You've had support?

Zeryab: [47:12] Yeah absolutely. I think since the age of 15, when you step into entrepreneurship, they understand that that is going to take up a lot of your time anyway. You have your own path you can create.

[47:22] I think if we look back and say that, would I have been better going down the academic path, like full-on academic path, choosing one of those career motivated things or entrepreneurship, I would still say entrepreneurship. I know my parents would say the same as well.

Kevin: [47:36] Are you from an entrepreneurship type family...

Zeryab: [47:39] No, no. It depends on the way you look at it. My parents, we haven't built successful businesses, nothing like that, but small businesses owners, that sort of stuff. Starting from the ground root very, I guess, people who've come from a very different background from where we started from zero basically. You have to build yourself up, so we come from that sort of background.

[48:00] I think that's where we're cut from the same cloth in terms of Andrew Morello who comes from that same background as well. Started from zero, basically built himself up to what he is today, and same thing with Stuart Cook. I think surrounding yourself with similar people is also quite helpful and that's what I've done quite well.

Kevin: [48:16] There's also a bit of a fallacy that I hear about, that most people in business, they come from fancy pedigree and fancy education. In my experience it's actually not true. It's pretty much what you've said and most people that I meet that have had success, not all of them, but a large proportion have started with zip and have just built it up step by step.

Zeryab: [48:37] Yeah, I think it goes both ways. See guys like, lets say Evan Spiegal, Snapchat founder. He's come from a well-off family...

Kevin: [48:44] Or even Bill Gates.

Zeryab: [48:45] Bill, yeah.

Kevin: [48:46] Or Mark Zuckerberg to some degree.

Zeryab: [48:47] But that's why I credit guys like Travis from Uber, that he's come from...His parents were door-to-doorsales people. He's worked hard, to give him that respect, he has worked hard and I think there's no rivalry at the end of the day.

[49:00] We're building our own tech companies, but he has worked hard in terms of what his background is, so he's built himself and the credit does go to him for establishing, understanding about ride sharing. He's done that well, yeah.

Kevin: [49:12] I remember San Francisco in the days before Uber, and it makes a lot of sense that Uber came out in San Francisco because to hail a cab in San Francisco was just so ridiculously difficult that it was just...And he was the one that just took that step and gone, "Wow, obvious opportunity here," and he's done a great job.

[49:31] People don't realize how difficult it is to build up a business of any size, and even when you're on the radar of legislators, and governments and all of that, and powerful industries like the taxi industry, it can't be easy.

[49:46] Self-driving cars. If I was a driver and I was to say to you, "Hey, [laughs] you know, self-driving cars they're here, really, not even on the horizon. They're here." How's that going to play into your strategy?

Zeryab: [49:59] There's different ways of going about the self-driving car issue. I think it's an issue because the current drivers around the world, the millions of ride sharing drivers around the world, are thinking that they will lose their jobs effectively. That's probably just one way to think about it. You're looking at an asset that has to be owned by someone.

[50:17] Let's just say there's a hundred Hop self-driving cars, for example. It won't be a smart decision for a company like Hop to purchase those cars. Why not get drivers, individual drivers, to purchase those cars, and then benefit off of that rental income by being at home?

[50:33] That's a different way of going about it. Basically, you're getting drivers to fund the operation side of purchasing those vehicles, they can own a vehicle effectively. Those vehicles on the road can pick people up, because obviously its self-driving, and they can earn a cut out of that because they own the car and we can get our cut for being the platform that provides those rides.

Kevin: [50:51] But the outlay will have to be a lot.

Zeryab: [50:52] Sorry, what was that?

Kevin: [50:54] The outlay to buy the car will have to be...It's not like a driver can have nothing and become a driver and rent one of your cars. If those cars now have no drivers, to make money they have to potentially buy an asset that's income-producing. I suppose they can get financing or things like that, but it's quite a different...

Zeryab: [51:17] That's what the Tesla ideology was. They're seen as different things. You can get a driver to rent a car for example, to pay for the rental itself. A rent-to-own sort of thing where they can still benefit. As long as it's some sort of funds that the driver has to put in, just like renting a vehicle, because it's the same concept, right?

[51:32] Let's say you're paying $60 on our platform to rent a vehicle each day to be driving and earning money. If you had to do the same with a self-driving car, we could be at home and pay 60, well, that's still making money for you. There's a lower cost there.

Kevin: [51:45] OK, got you. You'll rent the car, not drive it, and perhaps, say, if you're in an area where you know it's popular, you'll have the car around there, or however it will be set up. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, is the self-driving, and the Teslas, and...I mean, the Hertz cars, I assume that are rented out, they generally...like Toyotas, or Hyundais, or...

Zeryab: [52:09] Yeah, so the cool thing about Hertz is that, look, giving them some respect, they're in a 150-year-old plus company. For them, in the last few years, to step into this innovative play of ride sharing, etc. is a massive move for them. I do know that they are fully supportive of our project, and they do throw a lot of support behind it.

[52:28] If we were to go down the self-driving path, they do have a nice buying power behind them, so they don't just choose particular types of cars. Other rental car companies as well, we could somehow work out a relation where we can have those vehicles on the road.

[52:42] An interesting thing is that the Australian regulation is very, very different. It does lag behind, but it has left a few big loopholes to actually and effectively have a self-driving car out on the road even tomorrow.

[52:53] There's a few loopholes that'd been left and we have raised that with them. It's just that, at Hyundai, innovation and legislation don't always go hand in hand. Legislation does lag behind innovation quite a lot and that's happened around the world.

Kevin: [53:06] I believe self-driving cars are legal in 13 states in the US?

Zeryab: [53:11] In the US, yeah.

Kevin: [53:11] Here, they're technically not legal yet. What's the loophole?

Zeryab: [53:16] It depends on what environment you're looking at. If I'm driving on the road and I have a self-driving car which is enabled to self-driving, I can have it in a semi-autonomous mode. That's again pushing the boundaries, but then there is nothing to say I can't let go of the steering wheel and just let it drive.

[53:38] That's where you get to be great in. That's where legislation just needs to clarify of what environment I can actually test those vehicles in. For example, there was one of the states in Australia where Google was testing out their self-driving cars on a very small level, just because they liked the Australian environment, which is a very big plus point.

[53:55] It's different to the US, you have different climates happening all in one day and it's a very massive plus point to actually test that vehicle, plus you've got open roads.

[54:02] There's places where there's less dense population as well in Australia. All those plus points make Australia very nice place to have self-driving cars here first, than anywhere else.

Kevin: [54:12] Zeryab Cheema, the CEO of HOP. Fantastic story. we're going to follow your progress and we wish you all the success on your journey. I think you're on a good path, and thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

Zeryab: [54:31] Thank you for having me.

[54:39] [commercial break]

Kevin: [54:39] You're back with It's a Monkey Podcast, Kevin Garber, CEO of ManageFlitter. Kate Frappell, Design Lead at ManageFlitter. Kate, Zeryab certainly going at a million miles an hour.

Kate: [55:16] Yeah, he's a very smart guy, but he also talks very quickly, too. I had to listen to the interview a few times to catch some of the things he said.

Kevin: [55:25] His mind obviously works very quickly, and it's very bold taking on Uber. I think Zeryab's a great example of how, even in a place like Sydney, a lot of people will say, "You can't get a business going. There's not enough funding," and this, and that. Zeryab's done it. He's doing shit.

Kate: [55:40] Yes, hats off to him for picking out something, finding the right people to work with, and advisors, and just running with it.

Kevin: [55:48] Just doing it. Just doing it. With entrepreneurship you just got to...There's no formula. There's absolutely no formula. You can be young, you can be old. You can be rich, poor, educated, no degree, five degrees, you name it, it's just about getting on with it.

[56:06] I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about him because if he's achieved this much at 20, it's going to be an interesting...I'm almost envious when I chat to him. I think, "Wow, one thing in life is limited is time."

[56:21] When you're young, you can take more risks, and that is the time to do two things. Being young is the time to learn, and it's the time to take risks, because you got time to recover.

[56:34] When you get older, your risks become harder because you can't bet the farm or because if it doesn't work out, and there's always a very high likelihood that these initiatives don't work out, you don't have much time to recover from them. Being young, you've got that huge, huge advantage.

Kate: [56:51] Yeah, you seem to have more to lose as the older you get.

Kevin: [56:54] You definitely do. It's a different type of stress. It's a different type of concern I guess, and that's even why the cliché on a political level of conservatism tends to be very general here.

[57:12] The stereotype that older people are more conservative because they are hanging on to something, whereas younger people have nothing to lose. They're progressive and pushing for change.

Kate: [57:30] That's very true.

Kevin: [57:32] That's there as people tend to accumulate things on and have children and status quo's become more meaningful, particularly if they work in their favor.

Kate: [57:40] Definitely. The other thing I really liked about him was that he's still studying, still traveling. This is his second business. He hasn't thrown all of his eggs in one basket per se.

Kevin: [57:53] A lot of people say Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard, and Steve Jobs dropped out, and Bill Gates dropped out. Guess what. You're not Mark Zuckerberg, you're not Steve Jobs, you're not Bill Gates. That being said, the world's a very different place. You can learn so much these days.

[58:08] Some of the smartest people I know have dropped out as well, and not because...A lot of them drop out because the institutional itself just grates them so much, not because they're not enjoying learning. In fact the opposite.

[58:22] There's a saying from many years ago -- it might have even been Einstein who said it - that it's amazing that curiosity survives formal education, or something like that. Meaning that formal education can just really kill our passion for something.

Kate: [58:38] Yes, I can back that up. [laughs]

Kevin: [58:41] I think we all can those that have been to uni, and one of the areas that is ripe for innovation and disruption is education. I mean it's just...

Kate: [58:52] I'm just waiting for it.

Kevin: [58:55] You know, if we can game a fire or it's just move at all...I don't know, there has been some move to online and YouTube and everything else, but I think Duolingo you know, apps like that, that's how we're going to be learning in the future.

[59:11] I think sitting in front of a room, sitting in front of a lecturer, credentials might be good, but teaching ability is ordinary and for an hour at a time and these big blocks, looking at a big textbook, and it's even not the best way to learn.

Kate: [59:27] It's not. At the same time as well, the first step, I believe anyway, is just to keep updating those syllabuses. They're so outdated and the world is moving so much quicker than what the universities are teaching. I don't know. They need to find a way to iterate quicker.

Kevin: [59:47] I chat about with some of the developers in our team earlier this week, and I think the challenges in our industries and...Not many people are attracted to higher learning. They probably struggle to find that balance between people with relevant expertise.

[60:08] It's an issue and the piece of paper still means something and that's probably even why people like Zeryab still studies. You can meet peers, and it is still good for getting fundamentals. I think we all leave university with the feeling it could have been so much more.

Kate: [60:27] Definitely.

Kevin: [60:28] Unless maybe you're lucky enough to go to a top tier, a Stanford or Harvard, MIT or something. For us mere mortals where we go to other institutions where we...I know I was left feeling the same, that this could have been so much more.

Kate: [60:44] Definitely. I mean when you're saying about the value of your piece of paper or your transcript at the end of the day, to me it's a key. It's literally a key because a lot of job interviews and stuff, it's one of the criteria, that you have to have this piece of paper. You have to have done minimum three-year degree.

[61:05] To tick that off you've got to go through this education process. The stuff that you learned at university, the stuff that you're going to learn through practical experience, it doesn't add up.

Kevin: [61:15] What I said to people when they ask me advice I say, "Look, get a degree as quickly as you can."

Kate: [61:19] Fast-track it.

Kevin: [61:21] If it's two and a half years...Fast-track it. Get that piece of paper, check that box. There are instances where it might not make sense, and if it's making your life so miserable that you can't sleep at night, then leave it. Today, we're lucky.

[61:35] When I grew up in Johannesburg, South Africa, it was very hard to get ahead without a degree. It was. It was very, very difficult to get ahead without a degree, and there was essentially only one university as well. If you didn't get into that university, it was high stress, because if you didn't get into that university, there weren't that many options as well.

[61:57] HSC was a pressure cooker for that reason, and now, in Sydney at least, wow, there's all sorts of pathways into universities. That's a whole other issue, the quality of them, which I'm very critical of, and they've turned them into businesses. Of course, we all know what happens then, but we won't get into that.

Kate: [62:13] This is a whole other argument. [laughs]

Kevin: [62:16] Zeryab's certainly smartest to go down both paths and we wish him all the success. I should download the app. He said Android was coming, did he?

Kate: [62:28] Android is coming. IOS is out. You can use IOS.

Kevin: [62:30] Did you try? Did you download it?

Kate: [62:33] No, I haven't downloaded it. I don't live in the eastern suburbs and currently, it's only really working in the eastern suburbs.

Kevin: [62:40] It's a bit denser there. For people listening, if you're listening out of Australia, and the eastern suburbs is around near where Bondi Beach suburb, which is about 20 minutes to a half an hour from the Sydney CBD, were the densest. Probably the inner west and eastern suburbs, and the west, probably the densest.

Kate: [63:01] The densest, yeah. What I find interesting though that he said was their point of difference being that they can, for example...His example was at Coogee Pavilion, that you could book the ride with one of the sales reps, and then hop in the car. That was a technicality on the law because you didn't book it inside the cab.

Kevin: [63:24] You didn't hail it.

Kate: [63:25] You didn't hail it, and you made the booking outside of the vehicle.

Kevin: [63:28] Such a technicality.

[63:30] [laughter]

Kevin: [63:31] The taxi council is not going to be happy with that one, but...

Kate: [63:37] It was just interesting that they had done their research and figured out with that loophole was.

Kevin: [63:40] That's what you got to do as an entrepreneur. In America, they use the word hustle in the good sense of the word. Australians, they get a little bit...I see when I use the word with Australians, they get a little bit of a reaction. Their eyes get big and they're like, "Oh no, I don't do anything..." Hustle in America is, it's like you get smart. You do what you need to do and you move forward.

[64:02] If that means just finding a way...It doesn't mean about breaking the law. I never believe that's the answer. You either find a way or you find a way to change law, which Uber's doing, and for that you need deep pockets, which I guess Uber has. Deep, deep pockets to pay fines, and to go to court cases, and all sorts of things like that. It's possible, and it's done, and it's happening.

[64:30] Anyway, I wish Zeryab all the best. That's HOP. We'll put his details up on the show notes. We're going to call it a show, Episode 91. Thank you so much for listening. Please email us, tweet us. We love to hear from you.

[64:45] We're going to be back in a week time. We're trying to keep these podcasts weekly, so we're going to be back with episode 92 next week. You can of course always go to itsamonkey.com. Listen to past episodes.

[64:58] We've had some great interviews over the last couple of months, and have a good week wherever you are in the world. Thanks for joining us.

Kate: [65:05] See you later.

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